Wyrmworks Publishing A successful adventuring party relies on a variety of characters with different skills and backgrounds, but is the same true of the players? Welcome to Gaining Advantage. Wyrmworks Publishing Welcome to Gaining Advantage. We are using role playing games like Dungeons and Dragons to help you make lives better. We have a huge announcement: our big project Limitless Heroics: including characters with disabilities, mental illness and neurodivergence in fifth edition will launch live on Kickstarter, January 4. I just finished writing the main manuscript for it, and it's going through the editing process. I've got artwork for it pouring in and super excited about the progress that we're making. We are going to be ready to go and we want everybody to be able to have a chance to see this. Limitless Heroics is going to include D&D Fifth Edition game mechanics for over 450 symptoms, plus over 90 new assistive magic items, real world examples of each symptom so the players can learn more and better represent the symptoms, opening articles discussing how and why to implement these options, how to discuss it with your players, and common tropes to avoid, all the tools that you need to run an inclusive campaign. If you want to find out more about it, just go to inclusiverpg.com for all the details. That's inclusiverpg.com. The book is going to use a dyslexia and screen reader friendly format, plus an indexed audio version for the visually impaired and free random generators to quickly generate character symptoms and more assistive magic items. We've consulted with dozens of people with disabilities, neurodiversity, and mental illness. And we've hired a 100%, disabled, neurodiverse, and mentally ill creation team, or those who are directly involved in treatment. Stretch goals include NPCs by Anna Holden, from D&D Disability and Shauna Spain, an adventure by Jennifer Kretschmer, and more resources by Alicia Marie, Brittany Hay, and Emma Carlson. So make sure you don't miss it. Go to inclusiveRPG.com, sign up for our newsletter. Just for doing that you get 69 Free 4k Battle maps, a $10 value right there. And it also includes a new wizard arcane tradition as a subclass. Lots of different resources you get: news, information, all kinds of stuff inclusiverpg.com. Go sign up right now. Wyrmworks Publishing Diversity is making strides in the RPG space — or baby steps anyway. How do we extend those strides or add more steps toward the goal? Today, we welcome Jasper William Cartwright and Jeremy Cobb, 2/3 of the podcast Three Black Halflings, a show that promotes and discusses diversity in Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition and in the world of nerddom at large. 3BH offers DM and player tips, interviews with D&D luminaries and up-and-comers alike, and actual play series such as The Cub and the Caterpillar and Outlaws & Obelisks. The former is the official actual play show for Twin Drums' Wagadu Chronicles setting, and the latter is a post-apocalyptic Western in a North Africa-inspired setting. Hello, halflings! Jeremy Cobb Hey, thanks so much for having us. Jasper William Cartwright That was a great intro. That's like the best intro I feel like we've had that was awesome. Oh, that's a lot of stuff. Whoa, cool. Jeremy Cobb Yeah, I wrote it. Yeah. Jasper William Cartwright In which case, thanks, Jeremy. Jeremy Cobb Yeah, thanks. We may have to save that for future people. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah. Jeremy Cobb But thanks so much for having us. Wyrmworks Publishing So what would you like us to know about each of you personally, specifically, talking to the role playing game crowd. Jasper William Cartwright Oh, do you want to go first, Jeremy? Jeremy Cobb Hmm. I think for me, it's, I think one thing that I've noticed, at least from engaging with like the fans of our show and seeing fans of other shows, is that a lot of times people will, even actually just being a fan of shows, it's very easy to objectify people to the point where it's like, they don't seem like a person to you anymore. They seem like when you're engaging with a piece of content, OK, it's very easy to objectify the creators and look up to them. It's like they're on a pedestal or there's some kind of like, unreachable thing. But I think it's important to keep in mind that at least, well no, in both of our cases, and I think in every case of every creator, we're people at the end of the day, and especially when it comes to our show where we literally, we started with no connections, no Podcast Network at the beginning, nothing like that. We pretty much started from scratch. We're very much still people, and we are very much still learning as we go. So I think it's best to, while it's certainly like if we were to make a mistake or something, it's great to hold us accountable, I think people also have to just come in with a mindset of like, you're talking about people and people making a show and learning how to make it as they go. That's what I would say. Jasper William Cartwright Hmm, I like that. I however, am actually a robot. So feel free to not treat me as a human. Jeremy Cobb The first I'm hearing this. Adding to the intro — editing this right now. Jasper William Cartwright It's a revelation, indeed. No, I would say is that it's it's it's been a wonderful experience getting to be a part of this community because there is a lot of there's a lot of love and I think that Jeremy is absolutely right to point out I think it can go a little too far in some cases. It can be a bit too idyllic or a bit too far in one direction or another, but like, generally there is I you know that I feel like this is the this is my crowd of people. It's very, very wholesome, very caring, and it's enjoyable to get to do this and feel like you know, there is the space to make a mistake. If if if we should ever do so, maybe we have already, but I'm sure someone on the internet will point that out too. But yeah, it's already growing. Yeah, but I feel less pressured to get everything right, which is nice. And I'm just really enjoying the ride. I'm very, very thankful that I get to enjoy it at all. Wyrmworks Publishing Just a man standing in front of a microphone hoping that somebody will like me Jasper William Cartwright That's exactly Yeah, that's exactly exactly I am a RomCom, a walking RomCom. Jeremy Cobb What rom what RomCom would each of us be if we had to if we had to pick a RomCom I'm trying to think of which one? Oh. Fight Club. Jasper William Cartwright That is? Wow. Jeremy Cobb Mainly just because I like the movie not because I actually relate to the narrator or Tyler Durden or Marla, just I like the movie and I enjoy engaging with it as a RomCom. Jasper William Cartwright Quite funny if you think about as a RomCom actually that's quite a…I haven't really thought about that context before. But quite funny. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. All right. So most people watching or listening are probably familiar with you. But for those who've heard of your show, but not actually listened, tell us why everyone should be checking it out. Jasper William Cartwright I'll jump over this one because Jeremy is an incredible DM and our latest season of Outlaws and Obelisks is incredible. I find it very hard to be complimentary of myself but I don't have to be in this case because mostly Jeremy's work and not mine so I can and it's just it really it rocks. It's so unique and different, I think to other worlds that people might have heard before or played in and I think it'll give them a lot of new like flavor and fun when thinking about playing Dungeons & Dragons. And then not only that, I just think it's a total blast. Very funny. We like to keep the show pretty funny as well. And I think that one of our biggest selling points has been that we talk about some pretty tricky subjects but we always do it in a kind of light way. We try to make it filled with humor and levity and we try to come at it from a point of view of like, like Jeremy was saying, we are three humans also trying to figure this, this stuff out together. So yeah, that's what I would say. Jeremy Cobb I think that's well said. Jasper William Cartwright Thanks, Jeremy. Jeremy Cobb Thank you. Thank you for the compliment. Jasper William Cartwright You're welcome . You rock. Wyrmworks Publishing So thinking about diversity in gaming can sometimes feel like watching a kid grow. You don't notice the growth on daily basis, but you can see the progress when they grow out of their clothes. So what growth have you seen, and what is the goal look like to you? And what do you see as the next steps toward that goal? Jeremy Cobb I can jump in. I would say a lot of the growth that I've seen, there's I would say there's actually been a lot of growth even in the last year. The new race rules when it comes to D&D in terms of like they're they're gradually doing away with racial ability score bonuses, or at least prescribed racial ability score bonuses, or letting people be a lot more flexible with how they approach them. Jasper William Cartwright Just to jump in, I think that they're moving away from from the word race, which I think is useful in this Jeremy Cobb Yes, I was just about to… Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, so apologies. Jeremy Cobb Yes, literally. Yeah, that was the next thing I was gonna say. I completely agree. They're like they're moving towards lineage. They're also we're seeing more inclusivity in the creators that Wizards is working with, you're seeing more women, you're seeing more people of color, you're seeing more LGBT people and people who fit into multiple categories, including in terms of like people creating the actual books, Amy Vorpahl I know was had a big hand in Fizban's I think it's Fizban's. What is it? What is something of dragons? The new dragons book Jasper William Cartwright treasury of dragons? Jeremy Cobb Right. She I think wrote all of the Fizban sections for that matter. So all the little side that was her she like shaped the personality of the of the title character. That would be an example and we're also seeing more diversity in the actual play and D&D like TTRPG space in general. Like in terms, I mean, look, our show would be an example but there's, you're seeing a lot more other creators, people of color and LGBT people, etc, etc, etc. Just coming out of the woodwork. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, I think getting prominence as well in bigger spaces, on shows, you know, what that like being featured as DMs and players for bigger shows, and I think there's, you know, Aabria I think on Critical Role and Dimension 20 I think is a pretty huge step in the sense that like those are two of the most popular if not the most popular Dungeons & Dragons shows, and I think featuring having a black woman in the in the forefront of that I think, you know, it's it's just it's, it's that whole you know, representation representation is key is like such a kind of old hat term, but it really like there's no better way to kind of put it really, which is just that like you know, I I part of like, it's weird, because I always think, well, I don't even know if I'd have started Three Black Halflings this year. Do you know what I mean? Because the whole point, the whole reason why I started Three Black Halflings was because I went onto like YouTube and I was looking for like black creators in the space, and I didn't see any, whereas I think if I went on now, it would be like there'd be there'd be so much or well, there'd be a lot more than there was put it that way. And I might have been like, yeah, there's not really a gap for it. So I won't, you know, I won't I won't do anything. So it's so it's very interesting. I think that now is the point where we have to keep encouraging people and make sure that like people like me, don't think, "Oh, it's covered now." We're like we have to keep going. We have to keep embracing this and go even further because no matter how far we push it, you know, all of the major DMs like mainstay major DMs for all the big shows are all still white men. You know, most of the people at the head of was still white men, you know, I mean, so there is still a lot of systemic change I think or like systemic progress, not even change necessarily, because I don't think those shows have to change or, you know, people have to change you just like more people need to be welcomed to the table on like a full time basis. I think that's like the that's the I think, like the next step forward, that's that's probably what I would say is like, they need to be like, sitting at the table all the time all year round as opposed to you know, dinner guests. Jeremy Cobb I would I think I would add to that, that is more diversity in terms of which TTRPG is get have prominence and are like are seen by people because there's so many good TTRPGs out there that are made by independent creators. Very creative, very innovative, a lot of them we played a really fun one on our show once we're planning to do it again sometime called Paradox Perfect. And the creator of that is a he's a Well, I mean he fits into multiple parts like racial and I guess gender slash sexuality diversity. So like there's that I think that would be a big next step as well. It seemed more games other than just Dungeons and Dragons being like the face of TTRPG. Jasper William Cartwright And I think that's down to a lot the shows you know, that's down to, you know, maybe us, you know, other big TTRPG shows because I don't think I think Wizards will ever do that, you know, they're not gonna do that and I'm not that I wouldn't never fault them for I don't think like that would just be bad business practices to just openly campaign…. Jeremy Cobb "Please stop engaging with our product." Yeah. Jasper William Cartwright But But yeah, I think I think yeah, I think that's absolutely correct. I think the more diverse the voices are, and I think that it will welcome more people in and allow them to find a corner of this space that that suits them. Because I think that's ultimately what I think that's one of the things that I think happens a lot with TTRPGs is it's a very all encompassing thing. And once you're in you're like so in, you know, you really invest because you're making up worlds and you're, you know, you're making up characters. And so I think it's hard to kind of dabble, I think in TTRPGs and so you do really, I think tend to like occupy a space you listen to certain shows you you know, watch certain YouTube videos, and all that kind of thing. And I think that finally everyone will eventually find hopefully will eventually find their space like a safe space for them. And maybe it is more of a traditional D&D space where it's just about killing monsters and doing this and maybe there is somewhere on the other end, where it's a bit more about like the role play and the interpersonal stuff and things like that. So it'll be I think, the increased diversity allows more of that, allows people to come into the space and go, "Oh, this is where I should be. And I'm going to sit here and enjoy this thing for what it is." Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, no it's interesting, though, that you talk about, "Well, you know, Wizards isn't gonna promote other games," or whatever and, and I mean, that's absolutely true. But at the same time, I have noticed that in this space, that when it comes to third party creators, and especially the you know, smaller but but some of the, you know, bigger ones, too, are very happy to promote each other. I think, this space, once you get away from sort of big corporate. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, let's get away from Wizards. Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing So, but then you find that I've never seen an industry that is so collaborative. That and, and, and I thought, Well, I mean, that's fitting given that what we're doing is creating collaborative games, you know, so people are already used to working together and, you know, coming from different backgrounds and all that kind of stuff. And it's just really struck me how, you know, owners of these sort of medium size companies are perfectly happy to to help others to, you know, to work together to I mean, and I think some of that may have to do with sharing freelancers. And, but, but also, it just seems like everyone is kind of happy to see each other and, and I just don't really see among most of those companies, any sort of animosity, it's like, hey, we're all in this together. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, I think that could be policy with the newness of the industry as well. It's I think it's obviously boomed a lot over the last like, say 10 years, I think it's gone like, you know, it's gone from being relatively not niche, but like, it's been a it's been much more niche. Yeah, much more niche than it was. And then I think now it is becoming nearly mainstream I think at this point, like, I think in a few more years time, I think, you know, stuff like the Critical Role, you know, series and all that kind of stuff. I think it's only going to get bigger and bigger. And I think part of it is the newness of it. I think you see it with a lot of like, like new businesses. They kind of practice in a space where they kind of where they do realize that actually like they're not competing with the big boys. do you know what I mean, and they're not they're not they're nowhere near them. So actually, why not club together? Why not us own this little space together and see if we can collaborate and see if we can, you know, do things and create things. And I think that that's like, and there's a lot of the way that business is going because there was an understanding that we need to save small business like generally and I think that that, that kind of banding together, that creating of a of a community makes it a lot easier to than tackle those larger corporations and businesses. So I think that that's, and that's partly, yeah, it's almost a bit inherent, I think of like today's of today's world, and I hope that one day we can all band together and take down where that's not the case. Jeremy Cobb This is an interesting conversation to be had about the way that businesses do that in general. Like it's I think it's just kind of part of what how capitalism functions. Like at the beginning, things are a lot friendlier. And then once when somebody comes in to take over and essentially try to win the game, that's when you have a situation where you have these gigantic corporations that are extremely protective of their IP, like you get something like Disney basically Jasper William Cartwright just buys everything. Jeremy Cobb Yeah, just trying to win the game. Really. Honestly, we we should break up some of these corporations. But anyway, Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, that's because they have just emailed trying to buy Three Black Halflings as well. I have accepted the money. Jeremy Cobb 14 billion dollars. Jasper William Cartwright Honestly, if we did that, I probably would take it. I'm really sorry. 14 billion is a lot of money. That's a lot. I could set up another podcast, you can go come listen to that. And it'll be better because we'd have budget so Jeremy Cobb $14 billion budget. Jasper William Cartwright Exactly. Wyrmworks Publishing Right. Um, so what do you see is the, you know, we've kind of talked about the present and the future and that. What do you what do you see is like the next thing that you'd like to see happen as far as steps toward that goal, or is it just more of the same? Jeremy Cobb Continuing to hire, I think what you need is people in the actual companies that are producing this content, to be diverse. I think then you will have more diverse content, and usually better content because you'll have you'll when you have a greater diversity of perspectives, you often end up with a better product in the end. And I think that's basically what you need. Is, is similar to the acting industry, both Jasper and I are actors. You ultimately you don't just need more actors of color, or gender diverse actors or anything like that. You also need the people behind the camera and especially the people with the money those you want those people to become more diverse as well. I think as Jasper acknowledged earlier, Wizards is still ultimately owned by white men, most of whom are straight and cis. So you want to you're gonna want diversity at all levels of creation. And the creativity, excuse me of the creative creativity industry. As opposed to just at like the basic or the lowest level like, "Oh, we have, look, we just hired a trans employee and it's like, they wrote a single book." It's like, "Okay." Jasper William Cartwright No, they should be having input on every book. To me. That's the key is that I think then you actually, then every single book has that kind of that approach where you're not necessarily and I think there's, I think this is, this is probably my big thing I would say I think needs to change. So we need to kind of get out of this space where we feel like oh, we're either trying to change everything or we're trying to make everything we're trying to kind of what's the right word for it? I just had it in my head and then it's disappeared. We're trying to make every like PC will make everything like safe forever. Yeah, pander for it. And I don't think that's the case. It's more like we're what we're trying to do is kind of, we're trying to enable everyone to be able to interact with something Jeremy Cobb And inclusive. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, be inclusive. And that doesn't mean it's going to be for everyone doesn't mean it has to be for everything. That doesn't necessarily mean that someone won't look at that and find it problematic for themselves. But generally it will be like a personal reaction as opposed to like large swathes of people who are literally like unable to engage with the content, right? Because, you know, I mean, gore horror is going to be something that forever some people just can't get onboard with, but there's no I mean, you can't change the genre. Do you know what I mean? But I think if you approach the making of gore horror with as many people in mind as possible, you then create it in a way where you go like, okay in in the general swathe of people we will like everyone will be okay with this or on board with this who wants to be on board with this. And then if you don't like gore horror you can, you can then avoid that but you can still engage with other parts of this game or this thing or whatever, without kind of feeling like you're missing out or without feeling like you're being you know, targeted or victimized or whatever it is. So I think there's, we have to change the language of like, how we approach diversity and inclusion. So I think this idea of changing things or making things better or, you know, or Yeah, like simplifying them or pandering or whatever, I think all of that kind of language needs to go because it needs to be about enriching, I think is ultimately like the word I would use. We need to we need to enrich the game so that everyone feels like they can come into the game into any TTRPG pick it up and go like, "This is something that I can safely play with, and enjoy with my friends in the way that we want to do it. And if I want to leave out certain things, I can leave those out. If I want to add certain things I can add those in." And because I think that we get into a space where people are like, "No, you shouldn't do this, and you shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do this." And it's like well actually, they enjoy it. And it's not problematic for them. And I don't think it's problematic for society at large that they enjoy it. So therefore, there's no should be, there's no real reason why they shouldn't be able to enjoy it. So I think there's a there's a little bit of language change that I think needs to happen and we need to be a little bit more pragmatic in the way that we approach the problem and not just be like, "Wizards should fire Jeremy Crawford and get a black woman!" and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Jeremy Crawford's got bills too. You know what I mean? Like it's it's it's cool. We can just, we can just hire someone next. Jeremy Crawford is fine. Like we don't have to fire someone to make space. There's plenty of room at the table. Jeremy Cobb Following through on even the the gore horror example, the like thinking about inclusivity can be as simple as avoiding cliches. So if you're looking at the genre itself, you're like, "Hmm, maybe the black guy won't die first." We won't just fall into the whole like final girl dichotomy where she's like, virginal, and like sex is evil and blah, blah, blah, unless we're actually trying to make a specific point. Like, let's let's approach it a little bit with a little bit more creativity, and more thought. And then like, look at look at the subtext of the stuff that you're making and how it may come across to certain people, Jasper William Cartwright Know your subtext because then if you do it, and people get mad, you can be like, "Well, that's kind of the point. Like, I want to be able to get mad." Do you know what I mean? Like at least then you can say with your chest, "I meant to do that," as opposed to like, "Oh, that was a mistake." And I'm so like, because that's where I think that we get a lot of issues nowadays. At least if you're trying to be overt about something. You're trying to make a statement and people can then make a decision whether they think that you're not a particularly nice person or not like, they can make that decision for themselves, as opposed to it being the sort of muddy thing where like, "I didn't really mean to, piss everyone off. Jeremy Cobb Yeah, like another example would be a little oldschool Silence of the Lambs. The movie Silence of the Lambs has been over the years decried for being transphobic which I can completely understand where they're coming from because like, I like I've watched multiple things by trans people talking about why they find the portrayal of Buffalo Bill offensive, but I don't get the idea that I think Thomas Harris who wrote those books was attempting to be transphobic nor that Jonathan Demi was attempting to be transphobic with the depiction so I think what you're looking at is a case where the creators honestly did not have the perspective necessary to realize how their character was going to come across. There's probably ways to have done that character in a much better way that would deemphasize a lot of the elements that are problematic for people and really the core of that movie, isn't even Buffalo Bill anyway, so it ends up being like an unfortunate thing that detracts from the overall experience where obviously that movie was made in the 90s. It's coming, you know, it's it's a whole different scenario. But that would be an example of like, if we had a time machine, and you could go back and say, "Hey, guys, actually, just to flag this up. Yeah, you might want to go back might want to reconsider this particular aspect. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. Well, that's a really good point. And and I think it's something that that I know that I struggle with just watching old movies, TV shows and things like that, and I you know, you just you cringe at stuff. And, and you go, wow, and the thing is, you can also okay, I remember, you know, watching this back when it was first released, and I didn't think about it then. Jasper William Cartwright Hmm. And I was actually just watching. I was actually just watching Inside Job, which is like a new animated show on Netflix. And there's a part where like, two of them are sat on the sofa, like, hey, let's reminisce about the past like, I want to, like get into stuff that you're into as a kid. One of them holds up a DVD of the Goonies, and they just jump cuts to like half an hour later, they're sat there in the dark, both of them look really worried and the woman just goes, "So that disabled brother is just straight up chained to the wall." The other one just goes, "Yeah, that didn't age too well." I suddenly was just like, "Oh my god like there is." It's so easy, I think because Goonies hands down one of my favorite movies when I was kid, like I watched that DVD so much or the VHS or whatever that thing I broke it, do you know what I mean, so like, but like, yeah, man. And I think it is difficult. Like said it's a tricky line to ride. And I think the only way that we make it less tricky and less problematic is if we take away the vitriol of like liking a thing that maybe has problematic elements, you know, I mean, I think that it's, we have to just find a find a balance, do you know what I mean, and find a way to actually talk about it as opposed to just throw stuff about it. Jeremy Cobb Yeah, I think it's about remembering that nothing is ever going to be perfect. And it's whatever you do, no matter how hard you try, someone's going to get offended at some point. So it's about expressing Jasper William Cartwright And some people genuinely want to get offended just because they want to be offended. Like that's just like honestly that is just like how they live. I've met those people. It's it's incredibly frustrating. It's like, you know? And you just like, Well, Jeremy Cobb I mean, you can't win that battle. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, I was like, you've leveled criticism at me here. But sure? I mean, if that's really something, if that's really something that upsets you, then I'm sorry. Please don't engage with my content, because honestly, I can't change that like, you know what I mean? Jeremy Cobb Yeah, Jasper William Cartwright Like, "Oh, your voice is dumb." OK? I'll put an act… no, I'm not gonna put an accent on that's the bottom line. I'm not gonna do that. Jeremy Cobb Jasper is actually French. This is all it's all changes. He's saying this because he got this exact comment from me. Yeah, British accent. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, go listen to the first episode of Three Black Halflings — hard switch. Featuring the first episode from French to English. Jeremy Cobb I openly tell him on air that his voice is dumb and he switches just Jasper William Cartwright literally the second he says I switch that's yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing Oh, you know, that's right. The this is this show's available in both audio and on YouTube. And the the audio gets about 10 times the amount of downloads as I get views on YouTube. And I've had people tell me, "Oh, you have a really nice voice to listen to." And like, it's like saying you have a face for radio. You know? Jeremy Cobb I was gonna say the exact same as soon as you started talking. I was like, Ooh, that's a good voice. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, it's good. Wyrmworks Publishing So that was there was one more. Yeah. One other question that kind of came to mind as we were talking about this. You talked about games being approachable. Alright. And I'm thinking about the games, the sort of Africa based games alright. And there's been other kind of culturally focused games, the Islands of Sina Una and other ones like that, that are very specifically focused on a particular culture or, or cultures within a particular region or something like that. Alright. And so, you know, me as a like, okay, look, I just I check all of the privilege boxes, like across the board, except for wealth. But like everything else, like I can check that one. Right. And so, you know, when I hear about a game like that, I think that's really cool. And you know, like, I want to pick up that book and read it and I want to watch some, you know, some actual plays of it and but, like for my particular my personal group of six people are all white. And we've got some diversity beyond that, but when it comes to, you know, to race or whatever term, ancestry, we're all white, all right. And so, you know, looking at those games like I you know, I feel like, could we even, you know, play that without that, you know, anything close to that experience, and you know, and do it justice? Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, I think this is something that I think is potentially quite helpful to share, which is the like, I've had the exact same experience like I grew up in a white middle class, like area. Pretty much all of my friends before I went off to like university were white. I didn't my my father who is black wasn't around and so I didn't really meet black African, Zimbabwean, which is where my dad's from, culture until I was like, older, like even in the last few years, it's probably when I've engaged with it more than I ever have really previously. And so like, the same trepidation comes for me when I'm doing it. I think the only difference is that I'm not kind of necessarily worried about someone calling me out on it. Do you know what I mean? Because I feel like I It feels a bit safer for me to explore this thing in the name of like, I want to explore it, I want to find out more and I want to engage with it. And I think that the the, the ultimate thing that I would say and it goes back to what Jeremy was saying about stereotypes, which is that you ultimately have to just handle that work with respect and reverence. And I think that it's about I think, in the same way that you would realistically with an Arthurian legend, you know, the only difference is is that is like you probably know the Arthurian legend or whatever, you know, if you're if you're a white person growing up and have had you know, the same education I did, you know, you know those kinds of Legends so well you know them almost like the back of your hand. And so therefore, it kind of becomes easier for you to play around in that world and to be more free and feel like you can have more fun because you just know it well. You know, that like you're paying the right kind of respect to the world, you know, that the laws of the world almost, you know, the there is like traditions of banquets, you know what I mean? And like the ways to, you know, hold your goblet and whatever, you know, whatever it may be jousting, and all those kinds of things which you kind of just inherently know because of what you were told when you were growing up and things like that. You can then play around with them and you don't have to worry about them being offensive, and I think that's the only way I would say the only difference I would say both for myself and for you looking to engage with this content is just, it's just about putting that little bit more work in get to yourself to a point where you really feel comfortable in that world, you really understand what the customs are of that world and what the, what the people are like and what they they they say to each other what they do and how they and like the the Yeah, even like down to like currency and all of that kind of thing. Just Just Just understand it. Like as soon as you understand it, then you won't fall into that same stereotype and you won't fall into that same that same kind of icky place of feeling like you you're not allowed to play it. And then yeah, like generally outside of that, look if you don't have a really killer African accent, it's totally fine to just use your own one. You know what I mean? Like that's, I think, just a general good rule. And that's why I'd say it's just just be be, I think it's, you wouldn't probably think of yourself as being sensitive with quote unquote white culture like Nordic or you know, Vikings or whatever it may be Celtic, like you we probably are just inherently because we know so much about it right? Because it's been so much so baked into our culture. So I would just say to be as sensitive know it as well as you know, the other stuff. I don't think you can really go wrong and I definitely as a as a person of color wouldn't have a problem with you. I would love you to engage with somethwing like Wagadu or Utaru, which is…sat because I think that'd be That'd be dope. It would be dope to see when people play around on that world and do more stuff and it I don't think it's ever right to say like, you can't play it I mean, that would be so counterintuitive, I think. Jeremy Cobb I think that it's worth. It's worth saying also that when you dig into some of the origins of some of these stories, it's interesting to see how much has changed over time and how much many of the popular versions and I'm talking about European stuff. We talk about the Arthurian legends, or say the Norse gods, so on and so forth. The so much of that has become completely conflated, altered, switched around. I only recently found out in the original stories, Loki isn't even Thor's brother. He's like his uncle. They're not even related. I mean, obviously they're not related because like he's Loki is a giant but like they're, they're not they're not they were not raised as brothers. Thor has red hair famously has red hair, not blond hair. Like completely different dude. Like and what's interesting is your or with the Arthurian legends. The recent movie The Green Knight, or just Green Knight, I think that came out earlier this year, takes a really, it's actually much closer to what you would get in a lot of other versions of the authorial Arthurian legends, but even then, like some of the characterizations are completely different of the characters and some even they'll change from story to story. It's, it's, yeah, anyway, like the lead character of that Gawain changes drastically over time in terms of how he's depicted. The point being, even those stories people are coming at with a certain level of like, "Look, I'm just telling a cool version of this story because I have the basic gist of what's going on. I don't know the whole history of the Arthurian legends. I haven't read all of the different like I haven't read like the very first time that Lancelot appeared in the stories." Because Lancelot was a later addition to a lot of them. So on and so forth. Like, the same is kind of true for for like, say the Wagadu Chronicles or Utatum where like, you don't need to know every single detail. It's okay if you have a general gist, as long as you're coming in then with a certain level of respect, and so you're you're avoiding trying to be like, "Okay, so this is an African setting, so nobody can read. Everybody, like doesn't wear clothes. They have bones in their noses." Like if you start like running down this really like this just really bad list of just ugly stereotypes that are often very frequently not based in any kind of reality. And it's worth looking like some of the actual cultures. Actually one one very useful thing in the Wagadu playbook that was released, The Child and the Oath, you can see where like some of the cultures that each of the lineages are drawing from in the book. And so you can actually do a little bit of research on those cultures and see like, "Oh, I can now see pictures of what like how those people actually dress and what kinds of houses they live in. I can read a lot about their history." So maybe you can base your character on an actual historical figure, that you're like, oh, okay, like you have a better understanding. You don't have to do like hours and hours of research, but even like 20–30 minutes of just reading about something could be could make all the difference. Just yeah, it's I don't think but I don't think there's any need to be scared about it. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah. Do you think it's worth noting as well, that I think potentially what the whether there's some slight trepidation nowadays is that like, a lot of these, say African or Asian, like fairy tales, or myths or legends haven't had the same like treatment where to where point where they are like a part of like the lexicon of like our culture, right? Jeremy Cobb Well, not the West but Jasper William Cartwright not in the West. That's what I'm saying is talking in terms of our in terms of our context and what I think is like for a lot of, there's just still a lot of I think that for a lot of people in the West they still think, "Well, Africa is very precious about all of their gods and all of it," and I think in huge parts there are but it also in other parts, they're dudes like us and probably have very a mixture of people who do pay reverence to certain gods and don't believe in God and you know what I mean? So I think it is just, it's also part of partly born out of like, a slight bias of being like, you know, that, that they're somehow somehow more protective than we are. But I mean, I don't think that there are many that are more protective than, like, English people are like Christianity, and we've got churches everywhere. Do you know what I mean, it's, it is everywhere, it permeates our schools, everything so and then I think and then to that point, I think the thing that maybe that I was sort of I was sort of getting at before and that Jeremy may think of is just like the Arthurian legend has been told literally 1000 times like I can't tell you how bored I am of seeing Merlin pop up and random like literally it's like people just need, if they need a wizard in medieval times. It's always Merlin. Always, like, or it's like, another name beginning with M. That's definitely Merlin but not called. You know what I mean? And it's like, and I think that that's also part of the difference where some of this reverence comes from is like, well, we don't we haven't got that yet. We haven't even got like, we haven't got like a familiarity or a, or even like a one truthful depiction of the things, You know what I mean? If we've had depictions of stuff in the past, it was probably in the 90s. Like we were talking about earlier, like it was probably a little problematic or really general or whatever it is, and so I think they're just like, they're coming from very different places, like, you know, when your like our opinions of these two different sides of the coin are coming from such different places. It's almost impossible to kind of to say, Yeah, it's like do one and think, Oh, this is fine. This is unproblematic. This is whatever it is because it hasn't had the treatment. It hasn't had that exposure, that where I think now Arthurian legend feels like it is general knowledge. It's kind of like oh, it was a dude and round table and knights and Merlin and a thing. So it's very easy to become very general about it. You know, I mean, it's very easy to be because no one really owns it. It's not really a you know, whereas I don't think the same can be said of, of, you know, other cultures. You know, a lot many other cultures. Jeremy Cobb Yeah, I think I think on that pretty much falling from that. It's just about looking. It's about doing just at least a little bit of research into it. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah. Jeremy Cobb Because even if you were going to do like it Arthurian thing, I would advise that somebody actually look up some of the older ones because there are some really like you as famous as go…. Jasper William Cartwright It's fine. Jeremy Cobb It's that's the thing like as famous as Gawain in the Green Knight, the story is among like Arthurian scholars, most people have no idea what happens in that story. And it's completely unlike the versions of Arthur that you…opening of that story, a dude gets his head cut off, picks it up and walks out. You don't hear about that in other Arthurian legends — that thing's bonkers, but like it's and that's the root of the story. Jasper William Cartwright Merlin did that actually probably just drawing in the like Disney version was the sword in the stone. That's exactly what happens the Jeremy Cobb same way somebody decapitates Merlin and Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, someone – me, I come into that scene, Jeremy Cobb and decapitate Merlin Jasper William Cartwright cut off Merlin's head and walk out. Enough. Jeremy Cobb Yeah. He gets up he gets pretty mad that you cut through his beard but yeah, the but yeah, like it's, it's it's really about doing just a little bit of research. And essentially what you would do, if you imagine, I guess, that you were from an African nation or an Asian nation that did not have exposure to the Arthurian legend on nearly the same level. And so you were like, "I want to do something set in King Arthur's Court. Because I saw like, a thing about this one time. It sounds cool. There's and there's a sword in it." I mean, look, if you're if you're born in Taiwan, I don't know how many versions of the Arthurian legend you've seen. Maybe you've only seen one version of it. I don't know how pervasive the various adaptations have been over there. But any number of countries but like yeah, you say, Okay, let's do a little bit of research. Oh, here are some of the big characters. Oh, cool. Well, let's do this aspect of it. It's essentially the same thing. Like you can look you can look up there's all kinds of really interesting African legends from all over the continent, all kinds of different groups of people. And you could like for example, this is kind of like a West African slash Caribbean thing. There's all sorts of like Anansi stories. Those are really interesting to look into spider deity kind of who's like a trickster. Very a lot of really fun stories involving him that you could be Oh, cool. And this guy, Jasper William Cartwright one of the one that one of the few that I think permeates more often in our culture, I've seen Anansi like pop up in a few different things. Jeremy Cobb He's one of the Wyrmworks Publishing I remember I mean even from grade school, hearing a story or two Jasper William Cartwright He's like yeah, he's like a I've seen like people you know, and if you want to like boil him down, he's like that he's African Loki. Like that's like I mean that's, if that sounds fun to you, then go type it into Google and actually find out about it. Don't don't just do African Loki. To me, that's I think that's the key right is like if you hear something that's like, oh, that sounds fun. I want to do that. Because it's like a one sentence you've heard. Then take that just go a little bit deeper. Like what is where is the root of that? Okay, cool. Now I feel like I'm not just being general. Jeremy Cobb Yeah. And then if you want to put them in like the hat, except the horns are mandibles like spider spider jaws. Hey, that could be pretty cool. I don't Jasper William Cartwright I'm actually going to pitch this to the What If guys. So just just don't "What if Loki Was Black" Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing Actually, in on the Loki series, there was a black Loki. Jasper William Cartwright It was that's true, actually. Jeremy Cobb What if Loki was African? How about that? Wyrmworks Publishing Hey, yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah. All right. So um, well, this is I really appreciate this conversation because it gets me thinking about the work that I'm doing in disabilities. And as someone who does not identify as disabled myself, but has a lot of experience working with other people and did and continue to do on and research as I'm working on this and talking to people and stuff. And, and so, you know, I think what you're saying reflects what I've needed to do for this project and how I see people engaging with my work. It's "Okay, yeah, here, take this. Do you want to play a character with this particular symptom? Do the research, you know, look it up, find, you know, find some people, do do some reading, you know, get a sense of what it is before you play it." And, and yeah, you can't, you can't engage with with every of the, you know, 450 symptoms in the book, you're not going to be able to engage with all of them, at least certainly not at once and, and so, you know, how do you, you're just picking one or two or so, and just really kind of engaging with that and, and stepping into it. Yeah, you don't have to have the whole background of everything in order to take it engage with it and learn something probably to the process. Jeremy Cobb Yeah, 100% Yep, I agree. Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, so how have you seen people's lives change because of your work? What kind of feedback have you guys gotten? Jeremy Cobb We've heard from a lot of people. I think the main things that I've heard is people saying the show has like, opened their eyes to stuff that they hadn't considered, or has maybe helped them feel validated in some cases, if it was stuff that they had considered and hadn't heard anybody say in a public context. A lot of people have said it's helped them approach Dungeons and Dragons or diversity in general in a new way. Those are I think, the main things that I've heard. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah, I think the nice one I ever got was from someone who it was two white parents who had adopted a adopted a child who was of Asian descent. And they actually said the show helps them understand their child a bit more like the perspective of their child growing up in a very kind of what again, like that white kind of middle class place and understanding like how, in ways that they couldn't understand they might feel othered even though they are loved and they are cared for by everyone in the community, there are still there is always going to be kind of like an unspoken otherness and things like that. And so, yeah, I think there's Yeah, I think echoing what Jeremy was saying, but yeah, people just feeling like they, I hope I hope this is the case. I think this is the case that people have just kind of got a bit of a safe space where they can kind of come and kind of hear out some of these thoughts that are going around in their head and and hear it in a safe way in a way that doesn't feel like it's kind of scary, you know, it feels light, and it feels fun, and it feels enjoyable and not like, "Oh God, the world's a terrible place." I think we've gotten a bit of that as well, which I think ultimately is one of the things we set out to do. So I'm very glad that that's the case. Wyrmworks Publishing And so you just rescued a djinn from the hands of an efreet, and it offers you three wishes to achieve 3BH's goals. What do you wish for? Jeremy Cobb Unlimited time and resources to make all of the different things that we've been wanting to make but just have not had the time. Jasper William Cartwright Yes, please. Honestly, it's a it's a simple wish but just enough money for me to quit my job like if I could just quit my job to work on the show full time, well all the all of us that are involved, if we could just quit our jobs and work on the show full time Jeremy Cobb to be able to pay collaborators more. We really, I love paying collaborators a lot. Jasper William Cartwright It's nice. It's real nice Jeremy Cobb because they do they're so good. The people we've worked with are so good. I want to give them more things. Jasper William Cartwright incredible, incredibly good and it would be nice to be able to really reward them. Absolutely. Okay, so what have you said more time more money. That's two. What's the third one, Jeremy, what we do what we go for? Jeremy Cobb Oh dang. More time more money. Oh, I had something in my head. I had something in my head and I can't remember what it was more time resources, ah, access to whichever guests we need as well. I would say that as well. Because we one thing that we've been trying to kind of do but we haven't really gotten to do yet. We've been really wanting to start talking to more creators, not just like, not just like people like, "Oh, I have a show." Specifically like game creators, people that work at Wizards or people who are creating other games. I think it would be great to be able to talk to more people who are actually creating not just in TTRPG but also I would love to talk to creators in television, film, what all sorts of different film production, all that kind of stuff. I would love to talk to those people to see what it's like in those other spheres. Because look, we like we're nerds in all sorts of different areas. Jasper William Cartwright Oh yeah, Jeremy Cobb We would love I would love to pick their brain. Jasper William Cartwright That's definitely where the show is like going I'm 100% like yeah, we're gonna we need to chat some directors and some writers. Do you know what I mean, because it will be it all feeds into the same boiling pot. If I can be like really simple as well, just to tour just a nice tour would be really fun. I'd really enjoy a tour, you know, like a wish for a tour. I would. Yeah, that'd be good. Good fun. Wyrmworks Publishing All right. So what message would you like to give gamers who are part of a marginalized demographic? Jeremy Cobb I'll jump in or unless you want to go you want to go? Jasper William Cartwright No, I've got one but you go. Jeremy Cobb OK, I was gonna say it's, it's getting better. Yeah, getting better. Be patient. And don't just be patient, but also, like continue doing the work that you're just by existing in a space like this, you're helping your process. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah. Jeremy Cobb Just by being yourself. You are essentially making a statement and helping things move in a more diverse direction. Jasper William Cartwright Absolutely. Jeremy Cobb So 100% Keep being you and keep existing in these spaces. Your voice matters. And yeah, that's just what I would say. Your voice matters. You, just by existing, you are helping the change that you want to come about. Jasper William Cartwright And I would say I know it's scary to look sometimes, but your people are out there in this community. Like I feel like you'd really struggle to not find anyone who you kind of vibe with who gets you who understands you. Maybe that means you've got to do zoom calls across the other side of the world at silly times but like if you want it, people are out there. You will find your community and you will find support and it will and so so so yeah, keep looking because they're there. And if not, I'll play with them. It's like well, surely we'll, we'll work something else but Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, so what message would you like to give gamers who are not part of marginalized demographics? Jeremy Cobb Mine is to engage with content made by people in those demographics. Engage with people from those demographics. Listen, and accept that there's probably a lot that you don't know or understand about their experiences to such an extent that you probably had no idea they were having that they had these experiences or perspectives, and then do your best to learn and change while being aware that it's a never ending journey, and you're going to make mistakes along the way and that's it. Jasper William Cartwright Yeah. Just celebrate people. Like I think we like marginalized groups have gotten have, out of necessity have got very good at celebrating one another because we sort of realized that no one else is going to do it for us. And whereas I think that people from nonmarginalized groups don't really have that experience of kind of being the underdog necessarily, they don't have to like root for the for the white cis guys. So because the white cis guy is always fine. So just get used to being loud and supportive for the things that you like and and be genuine in that in that pursuit. If you'd like something then yeah, throw your weight behind and be be and give them space to grow, you know, that especially if they're from a marginalized group, because we, you know, always need all the support you can get no matter how much success we or other shows like us have had will will we pale in comparison to most other shows like so we all you know, like there's always support always things that you can that you can do you know, there's always projects there's always a Kickstarter always a whatever it is a place that needs to review or like or retweets. Just just find it and celebrate it. Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, so any projects that y'all have planning for the future? Jeremy Cobb Yeah, a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff. I'm not gonna I had I wrote a list, none of it's particularly specific, but there's we got so we're planning on some new guests, some old guests to bring back, a whole lot of actual play ideas including this I can get specific about: we have more Paradox Perfect specifically planned. Yeah, we have some mini seasons planned in some new and old settings. Yeah, eventually follow ups to our established series, and then hopefully some more full length seasons and new settings as well. And we definitely want to try out a bunch of new TTRPGs. Jasper William Cartwright Yes, yes. Jeremy Cobb That is also the other big thing. Jasper William Cartwright Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And generally, I think that we one thing that I think is exciting about Three Black Halflings is future much like our past is it was, it comes as a surprise even to us, when certain opportunities and doors open. So we will be continuing to to embrace things with with both hands and seeing where this crazy journey takes us. Wyrmworks Publishing Right so we will have all your contact information in our show notes. Where is the one best place that you'd like people to start to learn more about you or to contact you? Jasper William Cartwright Oh, the one best I would say it depends on who you want to contact. Contact Jeremy hop over on our Discord is the best place. Jeremy is always in there on the discord and for me, I would probably say Twitter is the best so @tbhalflings on Twitter tend to be pretty across that stuff. So but yeah, I would you say that's fair, Jeremy, I mean, would you say that's that's generally the Jeremy Cobb I think I think Twitter discord and then if you, you could could email us. You can email us at secondbreakfast@tbhalflings.com Jeremy Cobb or Patreon we do respond to Patreon Jasper William Cartwright we do definitely respond to Patreon Yeah, for sure we prioritize definitely responding to Patreon so yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing All right, well, thanks for coming on the show. Everyone. Check out those links in the show notes. Jasper William Cartwright Thanks for having us. Jeremy Cobb Yeah, thanks so much. This was a fun this fun fun time. Wyrmworks Publishing So if you have not signed up for our newsletter yet, you can go and do that right now just pop over to inclusiverpg.com or if this is after the Kickstarter is all done, you can just go to WyrmworksPublishing.com. All those links are in the show notes. There are 69 Free 4k Battle maps. That is right: free and you get a free subclass. Also free. Discounts, other specials latest news, blog posts, go sign up for our newsletter so you don't miss out on any of it. Alright, and if you see this being helpful, hit that like button if you're watching this on YouTube. If you'd like to see more of it, subscribe. If you know people that need to hear this, pass it on to them, send them that link. If you like me think that everyone needs to hear this, (This is such a great conversation this week.) pass it on to your social media friends. Don't forget those podcast ratings. It makes a huge difference to spread the word by increasing rankings in the algorithms. So wherever you're listening to this, if you could just go in and rate that, iTunes directory or whatever it is, we really appreciate that. Wyrmworks Publishing And so our closing question, what benefits have you seen in diversifying the game space?