Wyrmworks Publishing How do you make whacking people safe? Wyrmworks Publishing Welcome to Gaining Advantage. Wyrmworks Publishing Welcome to Gaining Advantage. We are using role playing games like Dungeons & Dragons to help you make lives better. We want to let you know about an extension on Limitless Heroics. It's still available. If you are not familiar with it, Limitless Heroics: Including characters with disabilities, mental illness and neuro divergence in fifth edition. The preorder on that is still available if you're watching this in September. By the end of September, beginning of October, we're going to be actually releasing it and then that preorder sale price will not be available anymore. You have to pay full price for it. And so I encourage you if you don't have a copy of it yet to go grab that now, link in the show notes. And also as soon as that is out there, our next project is a our fall Kickstarter, Limitless Champions. And that's going to include 20 disabled miniatures, with Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, mental illness represented by a comfort animal or a focus device, a kobold with a fidget, all kinds of different disabilities, a huge variety, the biggest variety ever used in a collection of miniatures. And we just we've gotten some great input from people and I have more of it flowing in even today as I'm recording this, and we're really excited to give that representation. We're gonna include six adventures featuring those characters, with their statblocks and everything and then a bonus first day adventure which you can get a preview on now at our Patreon, and so speaking of that, we have announced the Dragon's Lair. Alright if you like D&D Beyond where you have kind of everything in one place, everything is all hyperlinked together so that anytime there's a reference to some D&D mechanic or something else that you just, there's a link to it, you can go straight to it. 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And so now on with the interview Wyrmworks Publishing Before we begin the interview, we would like to give a brief content warning. While we don't go into specific or graphic details, this conversation will mention sexual assault, domestic violence and trauma. If that doesn't sound like something you're up for listening to, you might want to skip this episode or return to it later. Please take care of yourself. Wyrmworks Publishing Live action roleplay or LARP could seem dangerous since people are hitting each other with swords and mazes. But specific rules keep the players safe. But other potential problems could arise and leave wounds that cut a lot deeper than a foam sword. Today, we welcome Kitty Rodé from the Golden Feather Initiative to talk about what they're doing to keep LARP and geeky spaces safe. Welcome, Kitty. Kitty Rodé Hi, thanks for having me. Wyrmworks Publishing What would you like us to know about you personally, specifically speaking to the role playing game crowd? Kitty Rodé First off, I'll introduce myself again, my name is Kitty. My pronouns are they/them. I'm brown, disabled and queer. And I'm in Toronto, Canada, also known as Treaty 13 territory, which is also the stolen territory of many indigenous nations. I'm also a survivor of sexual assault and domestic violence. I feel like it's really important for me to name these intersecting identities, both so listeners have a sense of where I'm speaking from and also because the social locations I exist in have inevitably shaped my experiences across different role playing communities. When it comes to RPGs, my first experience with them was actually through techspace role playing on internet forums at the age of 12 or so. We had no rules, no dice. It was just a DM leading us through a story. And I was also really into cosplay and costuming, as a young adult, which I credit to my background in community theater as well as my emerging queer aesthetic. I actually discovered LARP while attending an anime convention. I saw these people dressed in these like fabulous medieval like gowns and armor and they're wielding these like beautifully crafted foam weapons and they were doing signups for like a battle royale just like, "We'll give you a weapon. You will whale on each other," and I was dressed in like a cat girl outfit and I was like, "Oh yeah, I need to grab a change of shoes and absolutely jump in." And I never looked back. Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, so tell us about the Golden Feather Initiative and how local groups can benefit from your work. Kitty Rodé Like so much accessibility and anti-violence work. The Golden Feather Initiative was started by a group of survivors who experienced sexual harassment and violence in our LARP community. LARP is an amazing and transformative experience where you get to really live your characters in a physical way. And that has so much potential for healing and creativity, but it also has very intense potential for harm. And unfortunately, that existed in our game. A friend of mine created a Facebook group for non-men at our LARP to get to know each other better. And as we were talking to each other, we pretty quickly realized that a majority of us have experienced some form of harassment and also some serious incidences of violence, both at our games and also at social events hosted by people we game with. So it started off with us just trying to brainstorm ways of how to keep each other safe. Like are there hand signals or code words we can use to signal for help if we're in an uncomfortable or dangerous situation? And a friend raised the idea of saying, "Why don't we wear these like golden feather brooches so that people can identify a safe person to help them out?" We didn't actually end up going through with that, because while it absolutely helps to have a handful of folks you can rely on when you encounter harassment, it became so clear that safety and anti-violence needs to be taken seriously by the game runners, the owners, the staff and fellow players. We needed things to radically change at the root of the game community rather than focusing on Band-Aid solutions. So yeah, that's what started my journey of trying to find out how do we create and sustain safer communities, and I've been doing this for eight years now. I have found amazing resources and teachings from generations of people who have been doing this work both inside and outside of RPG spaces. Wyrmworks Publishing Cool. So then how does that connect with like with a local group that someone has a group running? How do they how do they connect with you or your work? Kitty Rodé Mm hmm. Well, you can find Golden Feather Initiative, mostly on Twitter and Facebook is where I share a lot of resources. But I would suggest for anyone interested in like raising these discussions at their group or looking for resources is to just start talking to each other and saying, like, "Hey, these things likely exist, whether it's just a couple people who've been affected by violence, or it's happening somewhere and people aren't looking at it or taking it seriously." Starting the conversation and making an agreement as a group that this is something you want to prioritize is like the best first step you can have. Wyrmworks Publishing Okay, so how have you seen lives change because your work? Kitty Rodé It's really hard to see the effects of anti-violence work, unfortunately, because it's everywhere. It's often not spoken about. But I really feel the impact when someone messages me and says like, "I just want to thank you for teaching me so much. I've been following your page. I've had so many different resources come my way." Some people say like, "I've been feeling so alone with my trauma like what you're sharing gives me hope that like things can actually change in the future." I even once attended a parlor LARP which is like an indoor LARP. It's a smaller scale setting and someone shattered out "Golden Feather Initiative!" and said like, "Kitty over here is doing really important work," and I didn't even know this person. It felt awesome. But mostly seeing these conversations become more mainstream and public is like my hope fuel. I know like we're headed in the right direction. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah. And that's the reality is is that you may not hear from people that are benefiting or, you know, the changes are sometimes subtle. And or take a lot of time. And not everyone can sort of turn on a dime and or get their groups to adopt new principles or, or whatever it is. So yeah, it can definitely be a challenge and and it just it can, it can definitely take time. So that you know if someone would say, "Okay, well when did things change? Well, you know, there was this and there was this and there was this and…" Kitty Rodé It's a process. So I always try to remember this for myself as well that like safety is not an end goal. It's a process, and as we continue to have conversations and brainstorm ways to like, prevent these things from happening, and also, how do we address them when they do happen, then we're going to be more prepared for when that stuff comes up in the future. And like, that is all good work. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, so do you…are there any other specific stories you'd like to share? Kitty Rodé Um, I do want to shout out Nordic LARP. LARP in Europe is like years ahead of LARP in North America. So I found a lot of safety tools specifically, around how people can like pause a scene and maybe ask for it to go a different way or ask to be removed. Those were tools that weren't implemented in a lot of the LARPs that I played. There's often a really heavy emphasis on like not breaking immersion, which means that when something is making you feel uncomfortable, you don't feel like you want to speak up because it might ruin everyone's fun. There's like a social pressure there. So whether it's at LARP or around the table, I'm always like, how can we think of new ways to like, incorporate this into the game? I do a lot of D&D online now, especially since we've been in pandemic conditions. And before we start a new campaign, we'll say like, if at any point something is not feeling right to you, if you're not having fun, let's stop, let's reassess. And we also talk about what types of role playing or what types of situations like do you not want to encounter? We do not have sexual violence in the games I play. That's not fun to me. And as a person of color, there's certain ways to like experience fantasy racism, without it being like too triggering. So like those are conversations I like to have with people that I played with. And there are a lot of tools out there from people who have been thinking about this issue and like workshopping it. It's really exciting to bring that in. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, you make such a good point that if this isn't, if someone's not having fun, like, you know, like you're doing it wrong. What was the point? The point is to have fun and so, you know, if someone walks away from it going, "Wow, that made me really uncomfortable." You know? Then yeah, you need to change something, you know, there's no, it's not it's not like, well, this is this is for the sake of the game. You know, the game exists for the people, not the other way around. Kitty Rodé Yeah. And there's something so like, beautiful and also so vulnerable about storytelling and playing a character living a character to experience harm when you're in that vulnerable state, like it lasts, it stays with you. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because no matter how different the character is that you're playing, you're still bringing yourself into that character. Kitty Rodé Oh, 100%. I have thought that I devised a character that was so unlike me, and then I found like a piece of their backstory I was like, oh, man, that really resonates with like little me. I didn't even think about that. Wyrmworks Publishing Right? Yeah, cuz because it's coming from you. So. So yeah, you can bring your own experiences. I don't think it's possible to not bring your experiences, not that, you know, someone designs a villain and you know, oh, well, that's what you're, you know, that's that's who you are or something like that. But, but it's still it's it's going to reflect your experiences, your, the ways you've encountered other people or, you know, all kinds of things like that, and so, it's gonna resonate one way or another and, and even if, you know, there's just a striking, drastic difference you're still even if you're, you're in that you're just playing the role. You know, you're still experiencing that. Whatever it is, that's happening to you. Kitty Rodé Like we shape our characters and our characters shape us too, and like, that is the magic of role playing. That's why we do these things because we often feel powerless in our day to day lives. We don't see our influence on the world as much as we do in a fictional setting. So we can dream up and we can build better communities that will actually carry into our outside out of game lives as well. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah, this reminds me of when I was in high school, I liked horror movies, and I could I could sit back and watch horror movies and and just like they were funny to me and got a good laugh out of them and and then I got a theater degree. And now I tend to watch them more from the standpoint of, "Oh, how did they do that effect?" And things like that. But at the same time, I've also attended a lot of funerals. And, um, and so for me, you know, when you get into whether it's violence, death, and all that kind of stuff, like I have a harder time with it because of my experiences and you know, and just the way that that that has impacted me. And so you know, when you're when you bring yourself into a story and I mean, even if I'm watching a movie, I tend to sort of subconsciously find the the audience analog, you know, and, you know, and kind of identify with a character or something and, and bring myself into the movie to some degree, which is, you know, intensified in any kind of a role playing game, whether it's tabletop or LARP. You know, if you so then you know, those what happens in the story is going to affect you. And, and the more the more actively positioned you are in that story, the more it's going to affect you so yeah. Kitty Rodé And we want to, we want to find those edges, like the reason horror genre exists is because there is a thrill. There is something really exhilarating and terrifying and fun about being terrified. And we should be able to explore that in our games. If you want to and the best way to do that is to develop safety systems so that we make sure we don't walk away harmed by the experience. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, so you just rescued a djinni from the hands of an efreeti, and it offers you three wishes to achieve your goals to make the world better. What do you wish for? Kitty Rodé I love this question. And I find it so difficult. I think number one, like if I could erase sexual assault, if I could erase rape culture, that'd be my number one. I unfortunately have been through like a reporting process, and I had a lawyer tell me like, you can't stop rape. And maybe it's like the contrarian like bullheadedness inside me, but like, part of me was like, "Yeah, I can, and like, I can go forward and find the ways to prevent this kind of violence from happening." And in that search, I found so many other people so many other survivors who are like, yeah, we can and we will. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, absolutely. That is so important to you know, to emphasize whether it's… because I've been told, "You can't stop ableism." Kitty Rodé right. And it's like, Wyrmworks Publishing So, should I just roll over and forget about it? Kitty Rodé Yeah. Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing Can I can I make it you know, can I make it completely disappear from the face of the earth? No. Kitty Rodé And I mean, we didn't think we would ever get to the moon. Right? If we don't dream it then of course, it won't happen. And like, Who benefits from that not happening? Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, but But yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Are we just gonna go, "Okay, well, y'al' just go do what you're gonna do"? Kitty Rodé Literally! Wyrmworks Publishing We're not going to do anything about it! Kitty Rodé Yeah, it seems like it's just a way of putting you down and trying just saying like, "We don't want to hear it." But thankfully, I can see the tide turning. I see more and more people speaking out and realizing that what they experience isn't their fault, isn't something they deserve, and that if they do speak up, there are people, there's communities out there that will support them. And that actually brings me to my second wish, because I would love to have stronger, more trusting relationships with people in RPG communities. I've actually had to remove myself from the LARP community for a couple of years and a lot of online RPG spaces just to like help facilitate my own healing. I had to just be out of the mire and the environment that harmed me. So right now I'm taking time to process. I'm learning more. I'm working out my healing. And in the future, I would love to share this work and do it as part of a team, have a hand in building as a community more helpful and impactful experiences for people. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. I'm, I'm so sorry to hear that, you know, that you had that negative experience, because I know, it's one of those things that, you know, it's kind of like, we're talking about that: It's so it can be so impactful, but because it's so impactful, it can be impactful in good ways or bad ways, depending how it's handled, which on the one hand emphasizes the importance of the work that you're doing, and on the other hand, just raises why, you know, it's so important and and to say look, it's not just that we can make bad stuff go away, but it's that we can make really good things happen. Kitty Rodé Yes. Yeah. And I think this second wish is also a reminder to myself that this isn't a one person job. For a long time I stayed at LARPs where I was like being harmed and not being taken seriously. Because I was like, I'm the only person fighting for this. So I've just got to keep staying here and keep fighting. When in actuality when I remove myself from that harm when I surround myself with people who support me and who genuinely care about me, that's when I'm able to do more effective work. So I know that when I do return to LARP, it's going to be with like a better support system; it's going to be with forming trusting relationships in mind because like this work cannot be done alone. It has to be a group effort. The culture has to change with everyone involved. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, no, absolutely. There was what was it? There was a movie I was watching while back, can't remember what it was now. Somebody will recognize it. But it was there was this line in it that just stuck with me. "They want us to think we're alone. Because that's how they win." [Editor note: Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker.] Kitty Rodé Yeah. 100% Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing So somebody out there, you recognize that line? Kitty Rodé Right in because honestly, I recognize it too. I do not know where it came from. Wyrmworks Publishing Isn't that terrible? What's your third wish? Kitty Rodé My third wish would be for anyone who's experienced violence, including people who have perpetuated violence, to have the resources and support they need to heal and also transform the conditions that lead to that violence. I often come back to a video by the Barnard Center for Research called "How to support harm doers in being accountable." It's available on YouTube, and I recommend everyone watch it at some point. Because listening to the thinkers, the healers, the activists in that video truly makes me feel like we can stop this violence, and we can radically change the cultures of violence that we live in that like create that violence. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah. Hurting people hurt people. Kitty Rodé Yeah, there's a quote by Danielle Sered, that's people don't. "People's first experience with violence isn't committing it." I'm butchering the quote. But basically we enter violence by receiving it often before committing it. And that's a hard thing to hold. Especially when you have been hurt. But from my years of research, the ongoing learning that I'm doing, it's like, we are all in this together. Even if I'm not healing beside the people who harm me, I ultimately know that they need healing in order to be better. Wyrmworks Publishing Right? And there's a difference between you know, I, I want this person to be able to get out of this pattern of harm. You know, not only for the sake of those around them, but for you know, for their own sake. But and like trusting them. Yeah. Kitty Rodé Oh, yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing The difference between forgiveness and trust. Kitty Rodé Yes, yeah. Like, I have no intention of ever interacting with the people who have harmed me, but I know that in the world that I am dreaming of, they have what they need. And at the same time, I think it's important for survivors to not feel ashamed of like struggling with that concept, you know, we will want revenge, we will want justice, and then we may want that in ways that seem violent, but I think that's a natural way of processing like those experiences. And I think that we can have those feelings and also like, work towards this restorative justice dream for the future. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah. Those those feelings are not contradictory or mutually exclusive. Kitty Rodé Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing Absolutely. And um, you know, I've dealt with people that are, I've worked with people that they're, you know, they they're trying to forgive and things and they're like, Yeah, but every time I think of this person, I'm so angry. Kitty Rodé Yeah, Wyrmworks Publishing That's okay. Kitty Rodé Be angry. Be angry. Wyrmworks Publishing Or like, you know, I, I feel angry or I feel, you know, stressed or whatever. And, and so, I've been so you know, I said, one person in particular, that I remembering. I said, Okay, do you do you wish harm to them? And, and she said, No, no, really, I want them to, you know, to recognize what they've done and you know, and like, get to a place where that's not the way that they're, you know, handling life. And I said, sounds to me, like you've forgiven them and you know, that you're not hating them or anything. But, you know, but it also it takes a while to get there. This is you know, something that it happened years before. So, so, ya know, and that's, it's just really important to recognize that we have a way of sort of trying to compartmentalize all of our feelings and things and, you know, they can we can have all kinds of complex feelings that that seem contradictory logically, but feelings aren't logical, and um. And so yeah, we can end up having those different feelings and that's okay. And there's, it's there's nothing, there's nothing wrong or weird or or bad about that. It's just you feel Kitty Rodé It's all humanity. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah! Kitty Rodé All just bein' a human, a weird complex thinking feeling messy human. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. Kitty Rodé And the more I think about my own feelings of like the times I have wished harm on the people who hurt me. It's mostly rooted in a place of like, I want them to feel what I felt. And that is rooted in I want them to understand what they did to me. Like it's a convoluted way to get there. But in the end, we just want to be understood. We want people to know the extent of their actions and we want them to do better. Wyrmworks Publishing Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And that makes perfect sense. And it's the opposite side of the of the coin of the people in my life that I really care about. I want them to know how they make me feel, how happy they make me, you know. So yeah, if people are bringing harm, I want them to, I want that to them to recognize that too. So they can understand what it is they're doing and the impact that they're having. And hopefully recognize, "Oh, that needs to change." Kitty Rodé Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing Right. So what message what one message would you like to give to people who are looking for a safe LARP or gaming group? Kitty Rodé I would say to just have these brave and difficult conversations with the people you're looking to play with, whether it's at a LARP or around the table like virtual or IRL. If a group of people can at least start with the shared value of we prioritize safety, then you can start exploring, Okay, well, how do we do that? And things will grow from there. Wyrmworks Publishing Okay, and what might be the same answer, what one message would you like to give to people who have a group that they want to improve? Kitty Rodé No, I can give, I can give a different answer for this because definitely be prepared to make mistakes and or fail. I went through multiple different games. After the game where I experienced serious harm, feeling like okay, this time I'll do it right. I'll be able to have those conversations. I'll teach them what I've learned, and it'll just be fine. And it wasn't partially because I was still really early in my healing journey. I was a bit of a mess. And sometimes people are just not ready. Depending on the conditions you're raised in, it's likely that you or the people in your group haven't been given a lot of tools around safety, or conflict resolution or anti-oppression. So like I said before, safety's a journey, it's not a goal. And I think I can't just give this one message. I think you might come to a point where you realize that your group doesn't want to or like isn't ready to improve in the ways you need it, too. Sometimes we have to leave and that sucks, but it doesn't mean this is like the end of your gaming life. Another group is out there. And since I've left LARP and since the pandemic started, I've like reconnected with some friends that I've had online for years and we have been playing together for like, two to three years now. And it's lovely. Wyrmworks Publishing What projects are you working on now that you can talk about? Kitty Rodé Mostly rest. I think the pandemic was a big, slow down button for a lot of people, and it certainly was for me. I tend to be a workaholic and really just like throw myself into my work. And when we started isolating, I realized the like, toll that took on my body and my mind, and I really started to explore letting go of the work and how that is a part of the work. People have described it to me like sometimes when you're growing crops, like those seeds have to be dormant for a while before they can grow and sprout again, so I feel like I'm in that restoration, dormant phase. So in the future, I can dig my hands in deeper and work from a more stable and grounded foundation. Some of the things some of the things I'm dreaming of right now are like hosting virtual workshops and if pandemic conditions subside of taking this work to conventions and other spaces where I can directly interface with groups who are interested in this. Wyrmworks Publishing Cool, yeah, I can't emphasize the importance of rest, you know, Kitty Rodé Yes! Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah, it's well, I mean, we live in this culture that's, that puts so much emphasis on productivity and work. And, and I know my personality type is very focused on that and to the point that it's very unhealthy and, and we think that somehow destroying yourself as a is something to be proud of it. Because if you know when it comes down to it, if you really value productivity, then you'll be more productive if you take care of yourself in the long run. Kitty Rodé Yeah, and I mean, I see this in gaming spaces. It's a little more intense at LARP because I've seen people who pride themselves in staying up all night and like not sleeping, not eating properly. There's a bit of like, I don't know, like a badass label you get if you're like, "I go so hard. I like didn't even sleep last night." And I see them at the table too. I see people who are struggling with like taking breaks for dinner and like the table is getting increasingly more agitated and just like snapping at each other and it's like everyone needs to stop and like, go to the bathroom. Have a snack. It's supposed to be fun. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, let's do something for that blood sugar? Kitty Rodé Yes. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, absolutely. All right. So we'll have all your contact information in our show notes, but where's the one best place that you'd like people to start to learn more about you or to contact you? Kitty Rodé Folks, you can connect with Golden Feather on Twitter @GoldenFeatherI. That's the letter I, damn Twitter username. And on Facebook and Instagram @goldenfeatherinitiative. Wyrmworks Publishing All right. So we will have all those links in the show notes. And thank you so much for coming on the show Kitty, and everyone, check out those links. Kitty Rodé Thank you so much. Wyrmworks Publishing So just a reminder about the Lair and all the great content that is there — you can find the link to that in our show notes and the subscription is operated through our Patreon, and speaking of our Patreon a huge shout out. When I released the the Lair and put all the work into building that, you know, I wondered, "Is this something that people can use? Is this something that people will be interested in?" And just in about the two weeks that I've had it out there and announced while we've had just I've been so excited to see the interest in it and so just a big shout out and just a heartfelt thank you to those who have signed up since our last episode, and expressed your support for this project. And so that's Leonard and Panda, and Volge and Vijay and Tod, and Douglas and Theo, thank you so so much, and also to our other patrons who are already subscribed and supporting us really makes a difference. So if you see this being helpful, you see this show being helpful in the work that we're doing, hit the like button. And if you would like to see more of this, subscribe, whether you're listening to this in a podcast or watching this on YouTube. And if you know people that need to hear this, please pass it on to them. And if you, like me, think that everyone needs to hear this, then pass it on to your social media friends. And don't forget those podcast ratings. So thank you so much for joining us and helping us to help you make lives better with D&D. Wyrmworks Publishing And we close with this question. How do you act out fantasies? of inclusion and accessibility in your life? Transcribed by https://otter.ai