Wyrmworks Publishing How can we create a more accessible and inclusive tabletop RPG experience for players with disabilities and chronic illnesses? Welcome to Gaining Advantage. Wyrmworks Publishing Welcome to Gaining Advantage. We are using roleplaying games like Dungeons and Dragons to help you make lives better. We have a huge announcement for you today. If you have been catching earlier shows you know that this is a long time coming but here it is. Our upcoming Kickstarter campaign for Limitless Champions is finally a reality. Have you ever seen a fantasy miniature with Down syndrome? Guess what? I have one right here. His name is Ollie. He's a bard. Mark this day because this is the first time I'll bet that all of you have ever seen a fantasy miniature with Down syndrome. Or how about cerebral palsy? Like Precision here, the monk? Right. It's never happened before. Literally in history. I don't…unless somebody made a specific one for their own game. This is it. This is history right here. Okay, and we've got all kinds of other characters. We've got Dread the the tiefling Warlock here. She's blind. And you can see her staff and her little Raven there. We've got Orrelius. He's also blind, is a paladin. And you can't see it because it's so small in that, but literally if you could, if you look at the actual miniature, which the camera can't pick this up. There's actually braille in his in his book. We've got Donna Nason right here. All right, the dwarf barbarian with her axe, and this is so cool. The chain-loaded ram on the back of her wheelchair. We've got, a little bigger. We've got Rohna, the bard here who has these octopus-like arms, no relation to a certain Doctor. But they are connected to her wheelchair. And we even have little Rork here the kobold. I'm thinking that we might make that one a little bit bigger because you just don't get the detail. And here's the thing, these characters, obviously you can't see it on the camera, but all these figures are really detailed. This is, I printed these at 40 millimeter scale, and my…I'm actually having some problems with my printer, has nothing to do with the figures. We were already having problems before. So but I'm just super happy with how these turned out. If you don't do them in translucent red, you might see a little bit more detail too, but I'm just kind of a sucker for translucent resin. But also, if you don't have a 3D printer, we're also going to have, you'll be able to get print on demand miniatures so that you can have the physical miniatures. You can also, you can get the if you get the the STL files for printing yourself, not only can you make as many as you want, you can make them bigger if you want to scale them to whatever size that you need. You can, a lot of places…check with your local library. Because a lot of public libraries have 3D printers that they'll let you use for free or, or real cheap and so you might want to check that out, be a way to save some money when you pick these up. So we're really excited to have and that's that's just a sampling we have 20 different characters. And then also we have cards, tarot size cards, of the various characters. Right, and so so for example, I just showed you, Donna Nason, here she is in her wheelchair and the cool rainbow hair, the big ol' ax, and then on the back is the statblocks and of course these are complex characters, and even though we used a lot of abbreviations and much smaller font than we usually like to use to try to squeeze everything on there, Donna's a complex character. We needed two cards for her in order to squeeze all of it on there. So with all of the different characters, some of them are one card, some are two, some are three, so total of 33 cards in the set to give you all the different stats that you need for these cards, but of course you don't need to just use these. We're also going to have a PDF that will have more details. This is just for quick reference for DMs to keep handy and so that you can say hey, you see an elf in a wheelchair, or you see, here's precision, little more detail than what you could see in the figure before or Naiara Trevica, the mercenary with arthritis, and so you have all different characters. We even have, by the way, Moonmaeven here. You see her big ol' dog. We've got a miniature for that dog too. So it's actually, even though there's 20 characters, we have 21 miniatures, including her dog, Freckles, because service animals are important. And in fact, speaking of service animals, if this funds, and we have no doubt that it will, we also have some nice stretch goals including making some more miniatures of service animals, and so you can support this, we can make some really really cool stuff and so I'm very excited about this and really hope that you will support it. There's a link in the show notes for you to go check it out and follow it. It will be launching on May 2. And so you can go and follow it right now so that you don't miss out so you find out right away. And we're also going to have an extra figure for anyone who backs it in the first 48 hours. And so make sure that you follow it so that you don't forget and you get that notification right away so you can go back it so you can get on that extra figure. We're still debating. See, I have some some extra figures. We had a lot of these, we had multiple sculptors working on them so that you get the best one. And I'm kind of debating—some of them we ended up, they just weren't up to the quality that we wanted. And so we had to throw those out, but there's a couple of them. We're actually trying to decide which one to use as the main one. And so right now, kind of thinking that Rohna Ginnsley here with her octopus arm wheelchair, that the other figure of her, it was probably going to be the the bonus one so but you have to wait until we launch to find out for sure. And so yeah, I really hope you'll back that because we've got characters with accurate dwarfism. Another thing that you don't actually see—you see halflings and dwarves in the D&D sense, alright, but we actually talked with people for whom that's their life and we wanted to get an accurate representation of what it's like. In this case, it's a very cool Dragonborn who rides a wheelsled. And so we're just… I'm just thrilled. Anyway, so this is the largest most diverse collection of disabled fantasy game miniatures ever made, with characters representing disabilities like alopecia, cerebral palsy, fibromyalgia…. Each character includes a 5e statblock, background, personality, full color character art, plot hooks for inclusion in your game, you get the minis, you get the cards, and for our Platinum level backers. Right we have a case for the figures. This is a nice case. This is a shiny, it's called piano finish, so kind of think about if you're seeing a piano, run your hands, nice, shiny finish. Inside soft, soft and it's like padded, like a jewelry box so you can fit all the figures will easily fit in here and then the cards will fit in there with it. And a few other figures in there too. And then extra padding and the nice soft velvet inside will keep them from jostling around too much. And then what we're gonna do is, oh, and it has a nice velvet bottom too so your tabletop doesn't get scratched up. And then the top. The top is like a picture frame. And so what we're gonna have is we have ceramic tiles that fit perfectly in here. And these ceramic tiles we are going to, my wife and I personally are going to, to use infusible ink on these tiles to create images for you and then we're going to have… you can choose any of these figures. And then we'll also have a choice of background so that you can pick the background and pick a figure and then we will create custom artwork using those two things and put it on your box and personally send it to you. And so that is the top tier. And so I really hope that that that you'll support us. Again launching May 2. Head over to our pre-launch page on Kickstarter. There are links in the show notes. You follow the campaign, get notified when it goes live. And we just really appreciate your support to make this a reality. Let's show the industry and the world that we want disability representation in our games. And that leads us directly into our interview with Tahina. Wyrmworks Publishing Imagine if the world were better. How do you imagine it? What's it like? What if you could live in that world for a few hours on a regular basis and then bring some of it back with you? Today, we welcome Tahina Andale, one half of Dicecourse to talk about how to do that. Welcome Tahina. Tahina Yeah, thank you for inviting me. Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, so what would you like us to know about you personally, specifically speaking to the tabletop roleplaying game crowd. Tahina Hi, my name is Tahina. And I have been playing tabletop role playing games since 1994. Since I was 12. Basically, I have been playing on both sides of the GM screen as a player and as a dungeon master. I've been playing D&D since about the 2000s, early 2000s. And since 2010, I have been diagnosed with systemic lupus erythematosus, which is an autoimmune disease, and other comorbidities. So for me, it's the question how you can run good tabletop games while being chronically ill and disabled. Wyrmworks Publishing So tell us about Dicecourse. Tahina Yeah, Dicecourse is a monthly talk that I am running together with a good friend of mine. We usually invite guests to talk about subjects like accessibility, how to avoid ableism while running a horror themed tabletop role playing game, and stuff like that. Wyrmworks Publishing Right. And so can you give some examples? Tahina Yeah, of course. We have been running talks for about two years now and for one and a half years under the name Dicecourse. We are a German-speaking talk and we very often have others and as guests on there talk to us about progressive worldbuilding, how to represent marginalized groups in a respectful manner that avoids tropes. And as I've, as we've been talking about the horror games, like not making the villain disabled and being them a villain because they're disabled because that's a very common trope, especially in horror themed games, and how you can do better, what else you can look at to avoid stereotyping people in your game. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. Alright, so have you seen lives changed because of your work? Tahina Yeah, um, I think it's in a small way, but in the kind of ways that's matters to me, because I've been rather visible on social media or I'm on Twitter or on Instagram and on Tik Tok. I do record little Tik Toks about my games and the tips for GMing and also I'm very open about my disability and chronic illness. So I do get a lot of private messages especially on social media, with mostly female representing people telling me how helpful it was to them to see another woman that is disabled in the space that is very often still predominantly male and white and able-bodied. At least that is what it's coming across. Basically, you don't see very many disabled players and GMs out there. So they do write me, they ask questions, and I give them…I try to give them advice, how to run games for their partners, their family, friends and stuff like that. How to accommodate for different accessibility needs and how to pace themselves that because that is very often a problem for disabled women in this space, how to get, how to do the caring for yourself, care work, and your maybe everyday job and gaming as well. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's interesting because I found I get contacted on a pretty regular basis, too, by people just either either looking for help or just saying, Hey, thank you so much for doing this. You know, just like you said, it, I'm continually astonished that, you know, when we talk about disabilities, we're talking about about 25% of the population. Tahina Yes! Wyrmworks Publishing And yet, like you said, you just you don't see representation. Now everybody, you know, that's hearing or watching this is gonna say, Oh, well, there's this or this, this. Yeah, those are the exceptions. And, and, honestly, there's also a lot of people that just aren't comfortable being open about their disabilities and for all kinds of reasons. And so I mean, I know when I got my, my hearing aids, and I posted, I said, I'm so excited, I get these hearing aids, you know, and and they're so awesome. And you know, and I got notes from people saying, you know, I've been kind of putting it off but seeing you so excited about it, I decided to go ahead and do it and yeah, well, it really helps. There's so there's, you know, the stigma is and there's so many issues that that make people just uncomfortable either with with who they are feeling like they are somehow less or that they're, you know, just afraid to, you know, that they're gonna get some kind of negative reaction from people and so, yeah, the more we can have this sort of thing out in the public just the the more comfortable everyone's gonna feel. Tahina Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have been getting exactly the same messages and when I posted pictures of my rollator, and I'm also using it as a GM prop because I'm putting all the books on there when we're playing at a table and use it for kinds of things. And people are just like, Oh, you're so young, and you have to use it. And now that you're using it, I have been looking into it and I should have gotten that thing way earlier. And that's why we need representation, to normalize it, to take that stigma away. I think we did great with glasses. They have been becoming more of the norm basically. And now we do that we need to do that with other things, be it? I don't know, wheelchairs, hearing aids, canes. I'm some… I'm an ambulatory rollator user — basically some days it's I'm well enough that I can only use a cane and on others, most days, to be honest. I use a rollator and I did a little Tik Tok series during the summer. I called it in German, Hilfsmittel Helfen, basically "aids help," and I showed different types of things like heating pads, the rollator, canes, little pill boxes, pill separators and stuff like that, because I thought we need to normalize that you need to see a rather young looking person using it in on the internet basically to make it normal I guess. And especially in the tabletop RPG space where most often than not, I mean, in our games, our NPCs and the player characters and everything. They are able-bodied, and how can you see yourself in those heroes if they all are perfect specimens of health? And which is my I love your program where you try to get more diverse art for fantasy games, because we need that so desperately. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, no, and you mentioned age too and you know people if you're, say, over a certain age, you know then you know I'm I'm a little over 50, and I noticed that I'm not moving around as fast as I used to. Takes me a couple tries to get up off the couch and you know and stuff and and yeah, I'm looking at there's going to come a day, you know, where I'm going to need some kind of assistive mobility tools and and yet, you know, everyone looks at that and says, Well, you're just getting old, you know, and, but if you're younger, then you know I'm sure you run into all kinds of issues where people are just sort of shocked to see someone using mobility device when you're younger. Tahina Absolutely. I'm the only one with a rollator to in my neighborhood that is under 50. Basically, everyone is way over 60 and older. And I often get asked but sometimes I think people think that I stole it from someone because they can't believe that someone that looks rather youngish is using a rollator, and I'm at a point in my life where I'm like, I'm just having it as an accessory, you know, because for… giggles, I guess. Yeah, it needs to be more normalized. And for that we need to have more accessible spaces around us where people can come with mobility aids, and not be basically yeah out the door because he can't come in and in our tabletop RPG spaces, which also I think means that we need some of the extra accessibility options like being virtual at cons and stuff like that. We need that back because during the pandemic, there was a lot of that and I was like, "Yes! Finally, I can see all of that. And then suddenly it went away and I was like, but why? Do you now know how to operate cameras? Can you not get that back? Pretty please. Same in English and German, but it's, by the way, it's not different over here. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. No, it's funny. I've seen so many different organizations and that yeah, during the pandemic, they did all this great virtual stuff and, you know, jumped into it, some more quickly than others but but yeah, then as soon as they had the chance, they turned off the cameras and Tahina Yeah, it was very sad day. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. And I know, they're they're just so many opportunities before and, and yeah, it is better if you can be there in person, but you know Tahina What if you can't? Wyrmworks Publishing Right! Yeah! Tahina Yeah! Wyrmworks Publishing I look at it as: Okay, the people that can be there in person will. It's not it's not like you're discouraging people from coming in person. Because yeah, most people are going to prefer in-person, and if they don't prefer it, there's reason for it. You know, whether it's a whether it's physical accessibility, whether it's whether you need to avoid crowds either because of an immune condition, or because of social needs or you know, or whatever, you have a reason for that. And so, why not make that stuff accessible? You already showed that you can, so yeah, absolutely. Tahina And for some, for me, it's actually what you say to crowds. I'm immunocompromised so I shouldn't go around too many people basically. That was not a nice thing. During the pandemic, everyone had to wear a mask and I was not left. I had to use them since 2012. So during the winter, this was the first time I'd ever say, "Yeah, no one noticed this!" Basically, and for some people, it's just if you have a chronic fatigue condition, even if your immune system could stand crowds, maybe it does not…it's not feasible to, I don't know, travel by plane maybe to a con to be there for two hours and then you're knackered out and have to go back to the hotel. So it would be way better for you to participate virtually. And you could also I don't know sell maybe tickets for virtual showings of things that if if pricing is a concern, I think that might be another option. But to, just to take it away, that was very, that was very sad and felt not so good. So I hope that maybe it will make a comeback or something. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So you just rescued a genie from the hands of an efreeti, and it offers you three wishes to achieve your goals to make the world better. What do you wish for? Tahina I'm going… My first wish is going to wish for more empathy in others to put themselves into the shoes of people with chronic illnesses and disabilities or think about options like ones that we've been talking just now, right? The second one would be to make stuff more… accessibility would be my wish basically, for all buildings to have ramps or a lift or something like that so we can get in there can be part of a crowd and just yeah, have the same chance that every other person has. And the last one is a very tabletop RPG wish. Okay, so third wish is going to be that scheduling works out because that is the BBEG of every tabletop RPG group I ever met. And so that was my last and final wish for people to be able to meet their friends and spend time with them to play games. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, I hear you. Absolutely. So what one message would you like to give gamers from marginalized demographics? Tahina My one message should be you are not alone. There are way more of us than you might think because we are not as visible maybe as we could be or should be. We kind of are over drowned by the others and but we are here and you're not alone. And that is the message. Short. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. No absolutely, but it's so important. You know, like we've already talked about people don't see that kind of representation. Yeah, whether it's in tabletop games, whether it's in you know, TV, movies, and you know, and all over the place. There's just this reluctance and, and I'm also thinking about how on the one hand for for people like you to say, Hey, I'm disabled, and you know, I'm sort of open and public about it. And so, that's really helpful. But at the same time, we understand not everyone can do that. Alright? Tahina Oh yeah. Absolutely. Wyrmworks Publishing And, you know, people have all kinds of reasons and and that's okay. And, and so yeah, I want to emphasize that if anyone's watching this kind of feeling guilty about, about not being as open about it, don't feel guilty about that. It's totally fine. Tahina Yeah, there are many reasons, and no one has to out themselves and this… there's a lot of parallels between being queer and being disabled or chronically ill there, and having to out yourself or not wanting to out yourself is one of those big parallels that we have. So you don't have to do that but know that you are not alone. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right. So what what message would you like to give to gamers who are not from marginalized demographics? Tahina Don't think that you are the norm. Just because you are very visible and people might look like you and act like you doesn't mean that everyone has the same needs that you have. There are other needs, and if they are different from you, that doesn't mean that they are less important or that they are made up, or people just want attention or anything. Just be more empathetic and try to listen, and if someone tells you that they need something for accessibility reasons, please believe them. And don't laugh about it or ridicule it or something. That is very important, because as I said, it's like outing. If someone trusts you and tells you what their diseases or that they have a disability, then please be respectful of that. And mindful. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah. And, and I'll add to that, that it is not… you do not have the right to someone else's diagnosis. Tahina Yes. Wyrmworks Publishing That um part of respecting that that if they say, you know, I have a disability, I need this, you don't need to know why. Just trust them. They know what they're talking about. And, and that's between them and their doctor or, you know, the other people in their life that they choose to, to share that with. So, yeah, I've seen too many examples of people who have been, people have questioned them, you know, like, Oh, what are you doing and especially people that are like ambulatory wheelchair users are kind of the classic example. You stand up from a wheelchair and everyone just, you just get disdain, or if you're using one of those electric carts that they have in stores or things like that, that, especially if you're younger, oh, you know, "You should save that for people who need it." I'm like, "Yeah, well…." Tahina Yeah, that hurts. It's very hurtful. And as you said, you don't have a right to the diagnosis. And if you are in a public setting, maybe you're playing at a game store or at a convention at a panel and an actual play show. Please take a look around, maybe ask who's playing with you? And if you notice that it's a very like group, maybe ask what can be done to add more gender identity, someone who's not able-bodied to your group to diversify the crowd that you surround yourself with? Because I promise you it is going to make the game so much better if you have a more diverse group playing it. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah. There's such a joy in just being around people that are different and learning from their experiences and their perspectives. It just broadens your awareness of the world and, and stuff. Tahina Absolutely. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, what a gift. Alright, so you're working on any projects that you can talk about? Tahina I've been giving an interview. All right. I was on a talk last week basically, it was a recording for the gender swapped podcast, which is not a German podcast format. And that new recording is going to air in April, and we're talking about disability and chronic illness in fantasy literature, sci fi literature, and tabletop role playing games. Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing That sounds great. Tahina Yeah, it was a very fun talk. And I think it's going to be really long like two and a half hours long. Wyrmworks Publishing Oh, wow. That sounds really great. Tahina It was fun. One of the cohosts is an author and she wrote a book where it's an urban fantasy basically, and the protagonist has lupus and I was a sensitivity reader for her. And I'm telling you, when I read that story, I had tears in my eyes because it was the first time someone with my diagnosis was the hero of the story, and was so capable and could do things. It was. It was amazing. And we were talking about stuff like the literature like that with positive reimaginations of worlds where disability is just also represented in a natural part and you're not trying to magically make it go away, or solve it with science or something like that? Because that hurts. Wyrmworks Publishing I had to respond to a comment about that just this morning and on a regular basis. So Tahina Yeah, it's very often the case and people are very irritated when you're like, "No, I don't want to be wished better magically in the story. I want people to be there." And actually, if you take a fantasy roleplay setting like Dungeons and Dragons, way more people should be chronically ill and or disabled in those settings. There are dragons there. And stuff like greater restoration takes a lot of resources and someone to be able to cast it and it's a very high-level spell compared to the rest what a commoner can ever aspire to do or pay for. So yeah! All the prosthetics and wheelchairs. And stuff like that. We are very far away from how disability and illness has been seen during our history. Because if you look back, Ancient Greece are basically I think everything up to about the last 100 years or so. disability was so normalized that it was not mentioned. People had bad teeth, they had bad eyesight. They could not walk properly because of polio and stuff like that. And it was just part of the landscape of our lives. And now it's all, we have this idea in our head of what normal able-bodied person needs to be able to do or can do. And I feel like that has hampered us a great deal in how we perceive the world and what's "normal". Wyrmworks Publishing Wow, that is such a great point. You know, I see so many people go, "Well you know, in that kind of world, disabled people aren't going to be able to survive." Like, "No, in that kind of worlds disabled people have survived throughout history because we you know, that's what our world was kind of like before. You may not have had dragons, but, you know, you had all kinds of other dangerous things and, and, yep, people survived. Here we are," you know, and so it's really, it's, to think, to have that kind of perspective, it's just, it's this sort of weird ableist privilege. It's you know, it's, you know, it's, I learned about, and we talk about, like, wisdom teeth, all right, that and you know, and why do we have those and oh, well, it's a vestigial thing or something. Well, no, actually, in a lot of parts of the world, wisdom teeth are very valuable where you don't have you know, a meat grinder grinding up all your food for you and chewing it in advance. And so it's just that our jaws atrophy because we don't use them enough. Same with an appendix. It's really important to your immune system, unless everything that you are around is sanitized then your appendix getting bored and says Alright, I gotta find something to do and…. Tahina Absolutely that. Yeah, I think we have…. We can be very grateful, I think for modern medicine that made it possible for us to have very rare cases of polio and other diseases that can disable you for life. And at the same time we do, in the talk that I mentioned that it's going to air in April, we did talk about how disabled people are basically segregated from our normal society. They are put away. You can't see them, and because of accessibility reasons, very often they couldn't even come to certain places even if they wanted to because of stairs and yet so many reasons basically, and that is why we are in this very weird bubble of shifted perspective on the world and how it works. And disabled people or chronic illnesseses, that is part of the human condition. They're really normal, as you said, a lot of people globally are living with disability, with chronic illness right now, and your chance, listener, is very high to experience a disability in your lifetime. It might be just a short time thing because you have broken a leg or something like that, but it might happen to you and we all of us are just one illness like one virus or one accident away from being part of this huge crowd that's being made invisible by our media and the stories that we are telling. So I think it is very important to bring representation of this huge crowd! Also, those people also have money and they do want to play games. So why not let them spend it if you are just thinking of the capitalist way of things? Basically, that might be another reason why it would be nice to have that representation right? If you don't do it for empathy and have other people at your table then, by God, do it for the money! I'm sorry. Yes, but it's like with women get that you're being taught, "Oh, no, girls don't like D&D," like a lot of female representing people wanting to play D&D and other tabletop roleplaying games. Gatekeeping that won't make them go away. They will still play, but they won't talk to you about that. And so and it's the same with people with disabilities and chronic illnesses. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. Tahina I have a soapbox moment. I'm sorry. Yeah, maybe you can notice that I'm doing a lot of advocacy enough to talk about exactly that. Sort of… Wyrmworks Publishing That's, that's, I mean, that's pretty much what this show is so you know, if anyone has Tahina the same stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's conversations again and again with those people that are not part of the crowd and like, but why? And I mean, they can come if they want. Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing All right, so we'll have all your contact information in our show notes. but where's the one best place that you'd like people to start to learn more about you or to contact you? Tahina You can find me on Twitter. I'm still under Tahina_Andale and the same as a nickname is on Instagram and Tiktok. There you can see pictures of my pretty dice and my rollator with the flame stickers, and I do post a lot of stories about my personal games that I'm running. Wyrmworks Publishing Alright. Great, well thank you so much for coming on show. Everyone check out those links in the show notes. Tahina It was a pleasure, thank you so much. Wyrmworks Publishing That was so awesome, Tahina, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it was such a fun conversation and just so many great insights. I thought boy you could go through and turn almost every one of the sentences that she said into a tweet. And not that that's necessarily a compliment but it's intended as one because it was brilliant. Anyway, huge shout-out to our patrons. Patreon is how we help to keep our day to day things going. And it really makes a difference to keep things going in between our Kickstarters and other big projects, and so we have a bunch of new patrons and I just so appreciate you. So a big thanks to Craig to Bryce Carlson to Dorothy Hall and to Moominmuppet. Your ongoing support gives us the encouragement to keep up this work. And so thanks to our patrons every month, we also add Community Copies to our store for those who can't afford our products, because let's face it, a lot of people with disabilities, chronic disease, all kinds of other conditions are working on very limited incomes. And so we want to make our products available as possible and so we make community copies available, supported by the income that we receive from patrons, and so if that's you, you can sign up for our weekly emails to get notified when those copies come available. And our patrons get access to all of our content in a modular format that we call the Lair, plus exclusive extras for only $3 a month, and higher tiers have all kinds of added benefits like access to Limitless Champions before even it comes to the Kickstarter, at least in that modular Lair format. So thank you again. So much. Wyrmworks Publishing If you see this show being helpful, hit the Like button if you're watching this on YouTube. If you'd like to see more of this, please subscribe. If you know people that need to hear this, pass it on to them. And if you, like me, think everyone needs to hear this, then please pass it on to your social media friends and go to wherever you get your podcasts, go to the directories there, leave a rating, leave a review, it makes a huge difference. So thank you so much for joining us to make lives better with D&D. Wyrmworks Publishing So how have you seen the world improve as a result of roleplaying games?