Wyrmworks Publishing How can TTRPGs transform family dynamics? And education? Welcome to Gaining Advantage. Wyrmworks Publishing Welcome to Gaining Advantage. We are using tabletop role playing games like Dungeons and Dragons to help you make lives better. First of all, if you happen to be watching this within the first few days, first week of release, we are going to be at GameHole Con. We will be there on Friday. We'll be out on the show floor for most of the time, just going around meeting people and checking out the vendors and things like that. If you are going to be there, please find us! If you're watching this on YouTube, you know what I look like. And I will be there with my wife, and we'll be checking stuff out, and we would love to meet you. Stop us. Introduce yourself, and let us know how you how you found us and or how you came to know about our work. We'd love to meet you. Wyrmworks Publishing I want to let you know that we are releasing free weekly encounters for our upcoming Kickstarter, Limitless Champions Adventures. We're releasing new encounters that you can plug into those adventures once you have it. But they're also ones that you can use for other adventures as well. So even if the Kickstarter isn't something that interests you, you can still pick them up. Best way to get them: you can go to our website wyrmworkspublishing.com and find them, but if you want a reminder to grab them each week, then you can join the Hoard — that's our weekly email updates. And you can find that signup form on any page on our website. If you miss some of them, you can go sign up for our Patreon. There's a free seven day trial. You can go grab the ones that you missed, and if you can't afford to keep supporting us that way, you can just cancel your your membership right there and still get them that way. Wyrmworks Publishing I also want to let you know that if you were a part of the disabled_dungeons community on Reddit that was shut down because of the decisions that Reddit made about third party apps and just the impact that has on accessibility. And so we have set up a disabled_dungeons community on the TTRPG.network on Lemmy, and you can go to our website and or check the show notes for information about that. We have heard some people are having trouble with the captchas on there. I have talked to the admin for that server, and hopefully they're getting that fixed. So try it out. If you have trouble with that, let me know and so that I can work with them and try and get that resolved. Wyrmworks Publishing And one more thing, those weekly adventures — because we are going to be going to GameHole Con next week, we're going to be busy with that. And consequently I will not have time to release one of those adventures next week. So the one that we're putting out this week will be up there for two weeks. But still, if you want to catch them, make sure that you subscribe so that you don't miss out on any of them because they will only be up there each one usually for a week. And now let's get on with our interview. Wyrmworks Publishing In a world filled with imaginative potential, finding the right tools to nurture young minds is a quest in itself. Today we welcome Steph, the visionary force behind TTRPG Kids, an ENnie Award-winning platform with over 300 articles, 50 All-ages friendly TTRPG titles under their belt. Steph is not only a prolific creator, but a steadfast supporter of families, educators and creators in the Kid Friendly TTRPG space. So I invite you now to discover the secrets to unlocking boundless creativity in the next generation, as we delve into Steph's journey with TTRPG kids. Welcome, Steph! Wyrmworks Publishing Welcome Steph! Steph Hey, thanks for having me. Wyrmworks Publishing So what would you like us to know about you personally, specifically speaking to the tabletop role playing game crowd? Steph So I run the TTRPGKids website. And my intention is that it is a resource for families, teachers, and indie creators to be able to find everything in one spot when it comes to tabletop RPGs for kids. So there's a lot of information that's out there scattered across the internet. And it takes a little bit of time to find some of it sometimes. So my intention is that it's one easy spot and I hope that it can help with facilitating that. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, absolutely. Cuz parents have tons of extra time for looking around and scouring the entire internet for… Steph Yeah, yeah. Hours and hours. Just spent searching around. Wyrmworks Publishing So tell us more about TTRPGKids. Steph Yeah, so TTRPGKids is a website that has there's tips and tricks for how to run tabletop RPGs with really young kids. There's a whole section on education, like I run or I use tabletop RPG elements in the college class that I teach. So there's how I integrate it into the classroom and how you can use some of those steps to integrate into your own classrooms. There's resources getting into therapeutic benefits, where I've interviewed all kinds of experts in the field, about how they use tabletop RPGs in therapy and to see some kind of benefit from those who are playing. There's reviews and features on all kinds of indie games. So it is meant to have everything there and to give you all the support that you need for playing tabletop RPGs with young kids, tweens, teens, young adults, and to be able to use them for fun, but then also to be able to apply them. So they're helping give like extra educational benefits, helping with creating friend groups, developing social skills, and so on. Wyrmworks Publishing So awesome. That's so great. You know, there's a handful of resources out there for other forms of media. Like when we're going to watch a movie with our kids, we check out Common Sense Media and what people are saying there about, about movies or video games and stuff like that. But yeah, there's there's really not much in the way of for tabletop games. And especially when it comes to like indie games and that, you know, Steph Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, you can get all kinds of information about D&D Fifth Edition, and, you know, and some of the bigger kinds of things but yeah, well, this is, you know, this game on itch, or, you know, or, or something that is like, "Oh, well, what's that about? Is that…? That sounds like something my kids would enjoy it, you know, but… Steph Right, what do you know about it? So, the reviews and the features really help both those who are looking for games because they get that background of like, I do an actual play with my kid and then I break down like, I'm an engineer by trade so I like I break it down like in a report of like, these are the mechanics This is how kid friendly it is. These are elements to look out for. This is how we modified the game and so on. So that really helps for like our families and teachers, librarians and like babysitters, like everyone in kind of that realm, but then it also really helps the indie creators, because now there's an article out there about their game, sharing it with others. And some of these projects, like they're great games, but because they don't have like the same budget as a big publisher, or because they have to, they can't, like do a physical print yet, they're not getting the recognition that that game deserves or that they deserve for their work so it gives a spot for them to have something about their game for others to find. And there's a lot of creators that I've seen have actually kind of gotten the review gotten that as like a head start and then continued on and started doing like physical publishing and things like that because it's given them a little bit more recognition. So it helps kind of like both sides of the coin there. So Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, definitely. Marketing is expensive. And, you know, as much as marketing is such a negative word in a lot of people's minds, it's really just getting the word out, and it's letting people know, you know, I find so often the, with my own work, where people say, "Oh, I didn't know this existed. I wish I'd known about this sooner!" You know, it's like, well, you know, I'm doing my best but, you know, there's, it's, it's a big world and so getting things out to everywhere and you know, and yeah, there's so many different games out there and, and stuff just trying to trying to find those things. No, that's awesome and, and I love that, that you you're playtesting it with a kid. Steph Yes. Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing That's that's so important. Because I know there's, just playing with my own kids., their, their approach to things that they…the things that I wouldn't expect. They, you know, just their their approach to things it's… I just find myself going, "Yeah, no, I this is we're gonna we're gonna have to do things a little bit differently here." I was recently I've been going through the the new the board game that WotC came out with, the D&D Adventure Begins and, and we've now worked through all four of the included adventures. And then I said, Alright, we're done with this one. Because you guys are way too creative to be bound by a board game. Steph Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, the approaches that they wanted to take was just like okay, there's no mechanic in this game for making friends with the fire giant instead of you know, attacking them and, and stuff. So. Okay, well, it's time for an actual role playing game for you. And, but, but you know, they're not quite ready for all of the crunchy mechanics even of Fifth Edition. And, you know, so we're looking for different systems for them. Especially where if you have kids that aren't reading real well yet, or you know, or something like that, you know, there's all those different issues that okay, well, what do I do you know what's going to work best for my kid at this point in their lives? And so I also love that you're looking at this from all different age ranges too. What works for for one age is not going to work for another age. So that's really important. Steph Yeah. And there's like, with the age ranges, it's mechanics, like you said, reading is a big one that comes up because I started playing with my kid when he was about two and a half years old. And he's five now. So like, he can't read on his own yet. He's getting there. But like, it's gonna take some more practice. So then, like, finding systems that don't require a lot of reading for him is really important. And that can be a big barrier, but he can play the rest of the game. Like he can roll the dice he can count the numbers as long as it's not super crunchy. And the creativity, like you said, it's amazing. And kids play games so different. So a lot of the reviews that I was seeing out there for games that were made for kids, the reviews were written by adults reviewing it as they had played it with their friends. And so it was kind of skewed quite a bit because they weren't actually playing it with the target audience or like the intended like player base. It was being played by adults with adults reviewed with adults, or like reviewed by adults. And like the kid was missing from the equation. So like, like you said, it's so different. Because I run D&D games with my friends and like other tabletop RPG games with them, and so we have like the grown up circle where we play and it's a little more predictable. Well, they're they're pretty chaotic. Like I feel like most tabletop RPG parties get there, but my kid is like, on a different level. And it was a bit of a challenge at first for me because I was like, What do I do? But it's amazing and it's beautiful and it is really cool seeing what he comes up with in those games. So Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, you know, and for people that, you know, that don't quite understand what we're talking about. This… I remember back earlier this year when we had went through that whole OGL fiasco, you know, and there was this talk about how the folks at Hasbro were making decisions about how Dungeons & Dragons should work and you know, what the industry should be like and all this kind of stuff and it was people that have never played the game or you know, have maybe kind of checked it out once or something like that, but, but or not, you know, like, like they don't know what it's like to be a part of, you know, to have that game be part of your life and to just the culture of it and everything like that. They know nothing about it and, and so trying to make those decisions is for people that it's it's like non-disabled people that are making all the decisions for how we're going to handle disabilities and accessibility and other kinds of things. So you need people. I mean, in the disability community, it's, "Nothing about us without us." All right. And you know, and so it's the same thing with kids like they need to… I was… I got a little Hot Wheels Batmobile as a prize in our family reunion thing. Steph Yeah Wyrmworks Publishing And my daughter was like, "Dad, you can play cars with me now!" Okay. So I'm sitting on the floor with with my car and she's got her cars and, you know, and and stuff and the storyline that that she's weaving it… I'm trying to keep up and because you know how like in a dream, you know, like, you're on the airplane and then like, you just you just get on the llama and then you you know, you travel across the marketplace and you know, it's like there's just sort of no continuity and and stuff and like, that's how she plays. Steph Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing And, um, and so, you know, I'm trying to sort of piece this together in my mind and, you know, it's just like, "Okay, well, we'll just go with it," you know, and, and, and it was like, okay, and this is fine, and you know, and so when you're coming with that kind of mentality, you know, into a role playing game, it's just, it's going to be different. And, and every kid is different too, because I had another daughter playing who approaches things a little bit differently. And another one that is, you know, and and so just the same way that with adults, that you have one who's really into role playing, and then someone else who is really just doesn't like that struggles with the, the kind of social components and things but just really like rolling dice and whacking monsters and Steph That's great. Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing And so so with with adults it's that with kids is you're working with completely different skill sets, different things that they're interested in, different life experiences that they bring to the table. And, and, and it's not that their experiences are less—they're just different. They're just informed differently. It's just a different set of experiences that they're bringing. And so it just creates a different experience. And so yeah, you want your game you know, to tailor for that experience or to be compatible with that experience set. Steph Yeah, 100% like, because what's dramatic and exciting for us, is really different from what's dramatic and exciting for a kid. Like one of the things that comes up a lot is people will say, Well, I tried the game with my kid, I parsed the mechanics down, but like we went to the first session and they just weren't into it. And I was like, "Okay, how did you start the first session?" "Well, we met at a restaurant so we want to use a restaurant instead of a tavern." Like, "Okay, what was the setting?" "Medieval Fantasy." "Like, what kind of shows are your kids like your kids watching?" "Well, they're watching Bluey and Paw Patrol and Octonaughts," and I'm like, "Have they ever seen anything that was medieval fantasy?" And then like the person paused, and they were like, "Oh, I and so like things like breaking down the setting. And it charted sort of like challenging a lot of the perceptions that we have about, like, you know, our initial thoughts on what a tabletop RPG is because, you know, first thing that comes to mind is usually medieval fantasy, maybe a sci fi tabletop RPG, because there's quite a few of those out there now. But for kids, they might be into something totally different. Superheroes are kind of a big one. There are a few superhero tabletop RPGs out there, but a lot of people are kind of like, well, you can just do superheroes in like this other system, and it does work but there's a lot of like, little bits and pieces of nuance that happen in the background, whether it's like making your setting tailor to kids, the mechanics, the amount of tracking that they have to do, the reading capability, because you don't want to have it where you're like, Oh, well, I can just help them with the mechanics and the reading and tracking all their spells and explaining to them what the setting means and all this other stuff and like the continuity so like having a whole campaign versus one shots and balancing what you want out of it versus what they want out of it. So there's there is kind of…it can be a little intimidating at first, and there's a bit of a learning curve with like being able to adjust to that because it is so different. But it's all good. It's a good learning experience because you understand your children better when you play these games with them. Like you can see how their brain works as you're playing so, and it's a good bonding experience, but it's just there's a lot that's different when you're playing a tabletop RPG with a kid versus with grownups. So Steph Yeah, and what you're saying about you know, bonding with your kids and you know, getting insights into, you know, so often where parents bump up against our kids is it's just like, we don't understand where they're coming from, you know, or you it's so easy to say, okay, yeah, but that's not important, you know, because we're looking at it from a very different perspective than they are. But you know, the stuff that's important to them is important to them. Steph Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing And you can't like even though you can say well, but in 10 years, it won't matter. Like, "10 years is longer than I've been alive!" You know, that's telling us that, you know, in 50 years it won't matter. Like I don't care about that. You know, you know, future you know, and, and so, you know, within, so they will, they'll be more likely to you know, to listen to you, if they feel like you understand where they're coming from because you know, adults are the same way. And, um, and so, yeah, this is just it's a phenomenal way to to get to look inside their brains. And, you know, to, to see the world through their eyes and and to recognize where they're coming from. Because yeah, they do express themselves through their play like we all do. And when I create characters, there's always a little piece of me in that character, my heroes, my villains, everybody, they've all got a little piece of me. And you know, so being able, and kids even moreso you're gonna see that, and so you'll find that just that just, it's just such a unique opportunity and to to to understand them better to know where they're coming from to recognize what's important, why it's important to them. Yeah, I mean, all that all that stuff and then you know, as as they grow up, and and, and you continue you know that that lifelong relationship that is parenting, our grandparents grandparenting or, you know, or whatever your relationship is, with those kids. You know, just to your you're building those memories you're building and, and something that I've just really become aware of is that that sometimes, you know, we talk about making memories with kids. It's not that they're necessarily going to remember all those details because I don't remember, you know, the vast majority of the details in my life before about, you know, middle elementary or so and but you're leaving that that emotional impression. Like it's been said that people…the line is that people won't remember what you said, but they'll remember how you made them feel. Steph Yes. Wyrmworks Publishing And, and you know, so you're building that that feeling of. "This is somebody that understands me, that, that cares about me, that cares about how I feel, that cares about what I'm going through," so they're, when they're older and dealing with all the things that go along with being you know, adolescence, preteen, teens, you know, young adults, all that and you've already developed and, and had this constant ongoing communication about what's going on with them in it, you know, framed in a game oftentimes. Steph Yeah Wyrmworks Publishing that it's like you got something to talk about. I know, even, you know, my adult kids. When, when we connect a lot of times, the, you know, the sort of framework of our conversation revolves around role playing games and you know, things like that, because it's something that we're interested in. Steph Yeah Wyrmworks Publishing And, but then that'll bring up other things. Oh, yeah. Well, that reminds me this other thing that happened or you know, or whatever, and, and it just, it keeps that communication line open. And it's just, it's so powerful. So, um, Have you have you have you heard stories from people that, that use your content? Steph Yes, there's a, there's quite a few that have been kind of trickling in, especially the past year, because a lot of people who maybe I connected with in the very beginning have become little more established or have had the time to really get into it. And it's pretty awesome. So there's a family who won a giveaway, where they got a whole bunch of my games. They sent me a picture of like them playing with the kids and they're all like around the table, like smiling and having fun, and I was like, ah! There's teachers who have used the there's the Story Guider game. It's a 30 week pre-K social emotional learning curriculum, where there's a different game or like story that goes with it each week. That's all like into like the kind of the TTRPG space. They've used it with their kids and have like such amazing stories that come from that. There's creators who have said that like, they continued making games and improving them and like, learning how to make tabletop RPGs for kids from my site, and then showing me the work that they've made, like a couple of years later, and it's it's a pretty amazing feeling. So I'm still kind of like, whenever it like comes up. I'm like, oh, yeah, that happened. Because, like, it's, I don't know, it's pretty amazing. So yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing There's so many times where you're gonna have an impact on someone. I mean, of course, there's all the times that you never hear about all right, Steph Yeah. Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing And, but, but especially when you're when you're making this kind of impact on on kids, all right. You're the… like, okay, so you provide a resource for a teacher. All right. The teacher uses that to connect with their kids. All right. Steph 24 students Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. So you've got all those students, all right. And, and those relationships the teachers are so important. And you because I mean, sometimes some of the kids have been setting you know, things are not great at home, but school's a safe space, and and when they've got a teacher there that's going to be there for them, you know, that they can connect with, it can change the trajectory of a kid's life. You know, and, and so yeah, they're impacting all those kids, and then those kids are taking that what, you know, that effect on them and they're taking it into their social circles into their families into their, you know, their… as as they grew up, they're passing it on to their kids, you know, and Steph Yeah, it just kind of grows and grows and grows. And then, like, the creators that are on the site, and I see like, how many people are finding their games through TTRPGKids. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I did like a back of the napkin kind of calculation one time because I was like, curious and I was like, I, I was kind of blown away. I'm still like, a little in shock about how big it's gotten. Like, I when I started, I was like, I'm gonna write this and like, create some resources and hopefully help some people. And it just kind of, I think it filled a need that people really actually wanted and have wanted to pursue. And I'm, like, really glad that it's helping but I'm also still kind of a bit shocked and amazed by it. Like, how many people have gotten into it? So? Yeah, Wyrmworks Publishing I mean, well, if you think about, you know, tabletop games have been around since the late 70s, early 80s. But it really, you know, things really took off with when fifth edition came out 10 years ago, and but, you know, you have your people that they grew up with, with games like I did, and, and, you know, wanted to pass it on to our kids. And, and honestly, you know, here's this I'm so embarrassed about this as a parent that my, I have six kids, and the three oldest ones, they're all adults, and, and I did not play role playing games with any of them. Steph Don't be embarrassed. There was like, Don't be embarrassed. Like, it's all good. Wyrmworks Publishing They love them now. Steph Yeah, but like, you don't think about it sometimes. Wyrmworks Publishing I thought about it so much, but it was always like, I'm busy. I'm busy. I'm busy. Steph Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing But then the other thing is, there wasn't a resource like TTRPGKids where, you know, where I could find stuff that was specifically you know, I always felt like, Okay, I needed to like sit down because, you know, at the time, I had like first and second edition, which was, which was all like, really, you needed tables for everything. It was THAC0. Steph Yeah Wyrmworks Publishing And so, you know, I was like, Oh, this is this is too complicated. It's gonna take me forever, like, like, I want to just be able to sit down with you guys and play one of these games and show you what it's about and stuff. But, but it was always just that the barrier for entry was so big. That I just never had that huge chunk of time to be able to put something together that I felt really good about and so it just never happened. Steph Yeah Wyrmworks Publishing And and so but now that you know, I'm doing stuff full time that helps. And but even even then, I'm busy with stuff and but now, my kids that that I have at home, they're like, "Dad, when can we play Dungeons & Dragons?" And for them right now that means the board game. All right. Yeah. We just started developing characters for them and and just even the their ideas for characters are just fascinating and stuff itself like but yeah, you know, looking at rules-lite systems and stuff like that. So they can do that. And so they can express that creativity. And you know, the other thing that I want to mention with this when we talk about creativity, I took one education class, when in doing my undergrad, and that was on creativity. And and they talked about how creativity is measured. By age. And that your your sort of creative age is the lower it is, the more creative you are. Steph Yeah Wyrmworks Publishing Because as kids grow up, you know, they get told… they have all these ideas and people keep telling them, "No, that doesn't work. You can't do that," you know, and what it does is it stifles creativity. And because then they just just immediately dismiss a lot of the ideas that they have as, "No, that wouldn't work." And, or that's just ridiculous or whatever and and then it stops them from going, "Well okay, but what if we took this really bizarre idea and then you know, tweaked it?" Steph Yeah, Wyrmworks Publishing But but when they're told no, no, no, that doesn't work and stuff all the time, they just don't get to that point. And and so by the time we get to adults, we've already just discarded a whole bunch of really great ideas. And so so being able to, it's just being able to tap into that imagination, again, the kids have that they still have and being able to encourage that. So don't lose it. And I mean, there's still it's inevitable. They're going to lose some, but the more you can, you know, help them retain and encourage them and, and say, Yeah, keep going, you know? Steph Yeah, tabletop RPGs are like a safe place to allow that creativity to just go wild. There's a frame still with the game. So that way, there's like some rules that you maybe need to like get creative to work around. But that's more of the focus. It's not so much about saying no, but saying here's a problem. And there's also some randomization that can mess with you. How do you plan for that? How do you mitigate your risk? Is kind of like built into that. So it's taking that creativity, and then encouraging it, and then also giving it like, a tiny bit of a direction so it can help them later and build up like problem solving skills. So the class that I teach, it's a engineering freshman class, where we do a lot of projects and everything, and we build up like a lot of like engineering soft skills. And one of those is we go through the engineering problem solving process. And I've done a an article actually about how the engineering problem solving process lines up pretty exactly with like, raiding a Dragon's Lair. Because like all the steps that are there, and so it gets you practicing, like implementing a plan, like you get creative. There's the brainstorming phase and kids go wild with it. And then you're like, Okay, no, which idea do you want to use? And so then they've got to like, think about all the creativity that they've just exploded everywhere. And pick it and like, apply other like aspects of their learning to that and it's really cool seeing that, because it shows that creativity is a very good thing in that it can be used as a tool for themselves, and so not saying no. You're saying. "I have all of these options. They're all good. Which good option do I want to take?" Which I think is something that's really, really important for growing up and being a healthy adult. Another cool thing. And if I'm going on too many tangents let me know, Wyrmworks Publishing No, no by all means I have ADHD, so tangents are my thing. By all means. Steph I'm like, one really cool thing that these help with too is you are an adult playing a tabletop RPG with a kid. The kid has all this creativity inside of them and they're letting it out in the game. And as the adult, you are playing with them and showing your creativity and showing that it's okay for adults to have fun too. So they grow up seeing that instead of seeing adults going to work coming home being tired, and going through the cycle of day to day to day to day, so like it's good for adults to like for themselves to have that time to play and have some way that they're comfortable connecting with their children. But then also that gives so much to kids to have adults modeling that behavior for them, of being able to enjoy life as an adult and letting them participate into that. And I think that's one of the really big impacts that happens too. That a lot of the educational studies and like, it doesn't get into that so much. And that's actually one of the like, really big things that I think has been like my takeaway through this and that I want my kid to see is that it's okay to have fun when you grow up. And it's okay to be yourself, and it's okay to be creative and have that space for you later in life. So, Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, it seems like that's getting better than it was, you know, decades ago where, you know, video games are the, they used to be seen as a kid's thing and, and, you know, people that grew up with video games like, "No, I kind of still like them," you know, and they still sometimes have a stigma and yet it's a there's more money in video games than there are in movies. It's a huge industry and Steph Yeah Wyrmworks Publishing so, you know, tabletop games even moreso with just the ability to be creative and, and just sort of anything goes and stuff like that. To encourage that. I mean, kids are always thinking about you know, it's always that question, everybody that, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" and stuff. And my kids, you know, one of my daughters, especially, she's constantly asking me, "Dad, like, what do what? What's it what's it like to be grown up and what I'm, you know, I don't know what I'm gonna be and stuff like that." And I said, "Okay, so here's the thing. You are 12 and you don't need to worry about, you know, your career trajectory at this point. And, but also, I can tell you what you're going to be. You are going to be a just a wonderful, compassionate, caring, loving person, because that's who you are now, and, and I don't expect that that will ever change about you," and, and she's like, "Well, yeah, but that's not what I'm talking about." But that's what matters! Steph Yeah! Exactly. Oh, and that's, that's one of the like, big things with this too, is like that is the core of like, what we want to instill in our kids is making sure that they themselves are set up so that whatever they want to do, they have the capability to do that and to jump into something else. And I've actually seen with my kid, like, because he's had questions about like, you know, what he wants to be as a grown up and he's like, I want to be an engineer and was telling everyone you want to be an engineer. He's talking about driving a train, when they were thinking that, like, it's talking about like car engineering or something like that. And like, it's all and so we had like a little talk about like, he was like, "Well, I want to be this when I grow up." I'm like, "You can definitely drive a train when you grew up. That's okay." You know, and he will sometimes like, try out like career paths almost in the game is like, he's like, "Okay, today I want to be an astronaut." And I'm like, "Cool. We're gonna play a game about being an astronaut." And, you know, three, four sessions later, after we've done the astronaut a while he's like, "I don't think I want to be an astronaut. We're gonna build a time machine." I'm like, "Okay, cool. We're gonna build a time machine. We'll try that out. We'll do some sciency stuff." He's like, "I don't think I want to do science." So it goes through this process of like, he gets to try on all these different shoes and have like these little mini experiences of like, because I'll put in stuff where it's like, "Okay, you know, a scientist would need to do these three things, probably in order to get to the like this next step. How do you want to handle these?" And so he gets to still see like some elements of what that would be like or like, getting that different perspective, and then he can make a decision for himself. So he is just like giving so much information you can build into it. It's, it's kind of it's such an awesome tool, like TTRPGs are kind of like my parent cheat code at this point, like anything that we're kind of struggling with or need help explaining, we've baked it into a TTRPG and have used it to sort of help out with that. So Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. Oh, that, I just, I just love that. Just with just communicating with your kids. And you want to know what's going on with them. You want to, it's like you can figure out how to talk to them. Because your lives are so different or something like that. It's such a, you know, I struggle in social situations anyway. And um, and so being able to… RPGs provide a framework Wyrmworks Publishing Yup. 100% Wyrmworks Publishing To it provides a setting like I can, I can sit down, like, like an interview like this, where we have something specific that we're talking about, like I'm good to go and I love that. But, you know, just put me like at a party or some other thing where there's just kind of small talk and stuff like that, or for that matter, when my kids come home from school and I say, "How was school today?" Steph Yeah Wyrmworks Publishing You know, and trying to have a conversation where they're just kind of like, "It was fine, you know, nothing new or whatever," you know, and and stuff like that. It's hard to go, "Okay, I'm not sure where to go here to find out sort of what's in your head right now." You know, but, but yeah, to be able to sit down and, and sit down and play a game together. That just that provides that that framework for that interaction. So it's just huge. Steph Yeah, I'm the same way and so it just like having that some kind of context or like a consistent point to sort of like ground the conversation and the interaction a little bit helps me be more comfortable. I think it helps him be more comfortable because I'm more comfortable. Like there's a there's a whole like feedback loop about it. It's It's pretty awesome. So yeah, Wyrmworks Publishing I mean, you see that it's a trope in TV shows with parents trying to talk to their kids and trying to be cool or you know, and, and whatever. And it's like, just just sit down and you know, roll some dice together, and that'll, that'll take care of that Steph And the gossip ends up coming out. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah Steph the point during that like, yeah, Wyrmworks Publishing All right. So you just rescued a genie from the hands of an efreeti, and it offers you three wishes to achieve your goals to make the world better. What do you wish for? Steph Oh, my goodness. Three wishes to make the world better. That's a tough one. I mean, there's like obvious ones like end world hunger and stuff like that. Let me think. Steph I would say this is a hard one. This is a hard one. I would say providing affordable or free health care for everyone is is maybe like that's a big one. Ending all wars. That'd be a good one. Steph And then the rest I would I would frame it as resource management for the world. Because that includes like food, water, medical supplies, everything like that. I think that was like basic needs. Maybe it's kind of like where I'd go with that. Does that kind of answer the question? Steph It's like an RPG! You can answer it any way you want! Steph Yeah. Oh, gosh, that was a hard one. Wyrmworks Publishing And it's okay. Because, like, I don't actually have a genie for you. Steph Right. I know! Wyrmworks Publishing You know, so, you know, you don't have to worry about the monkey's paw effect. And and you don't Wyrmworks Publishing kind of think about how it could go wrong when I answer Wyrmworks Publishing And, and you know, you can change your mind. It's okay. It's not like, "Oh, I used up my wishes. Now my life is over." Steph Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing All right. So what one message would you like to give to gamers with kids? Steph Try playing tabletop RPGs with them. Just try it. Pick something as simple as you possibly can. And give it a shot and see if it works. And if it doesn't, look at what didn't work, change that one thing and try again. So that's kind of like the so maybe, like, try it out initially, don't get stuck in decision paralysis, because so many people will kind of like get in that loop of like, there's a few teachers I've talked to that had been planning to use tabletop RPGs in the classroom for like 10 years, but then never were able to like finish the plan. But if you just pick something, like really rules light, low barriers, something that's like a one page system and try it out to get a feel for it and see if it's even something that you want to continue do that. It can take one hour of prep, versus like, you know, weeks and weeks of planning, do something small and see if people are into it, and then iterate, like get that down. And that can really help. So, but just trying it and doing it getting a feel for it and seeing what it's like, getting past that, like, entry barrier is the biggest thing for most people. So give it a shot, and I think you'll have fun with it. So Wyrmworks Publishing Okay, and then what message would you like to give to gamers without kids? Steph Gamers without kids, be open to having people at your table who maybe aren't in your normal circle. So if like a person at your table, their kid is getting a little bit older and they maybe want to join, give it a shot. And see what you can do for your game. If you've got a friend who is interested in joining and they haven't been at your TTRPG table before trying out on a one shot, like that's how the hobby grows and how we connect with people. And get more people interested. I ran a try out your first tabletop RPG campaign, and like I started running them at a community center near me and just having one person to say, "Hey, would you like to play a game?" and then showing you the rules? That means so much to them. And now they're all starting their own groups running their own games and it's just kind of like, you know, my one experience kind of went and it grows and grows and grows. So being open to introducing others to the game at any age from all walks of life is really important. It means so much to them. You have so much impact, and it's giving such a gift to the world. Because like we talked about earlier, you impact one person, they impact like two like or you impact two people, they impact two people, they impact two people, like it expands really fast. And it has the potential to help a lot of people from just one or two interactions. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. Alright, so what projects are you working on now that you can talk about? Steph I am. Oh, gosh. So I'm always writing articles. I'm posting at this point, I think about three per week. So I've got like 300. I got more than 300 articles on the site as it is and it's continuing to grow. So I've got like some fun stuff for October. I'm like featuring all of the spooky games that I've posted about previously. And then there's like some new ones being thrown in there. I've got some new games that just came out that are like they're spooky themes. So there's Whispers, which is about who the ghosts call for help. So it's kind of like you play as a Danny Phantom kind of character who collects who collects wisps, which is like ghost energy, in order to help ghosts with their problems, like finding a lost family heirloom or like saving a house from being torn down or something. And then there's like a spooky train one. So I've been having fun with those. There's more games on the docket, but I've got to pick which one I'm doing next. So probably taking a break for a couple of months. After getting those two out and then I'll looking at getting another one in December coming up. Oh gosh, I'm on Tattered Bear. So Tattered Bear helps independent publishers get their projects on, like through crowdfunding. And so we help like a lot of especially small indie publishers maybe get their first crowdfunding campaign going and things like that. So I can talk about that one. Not about any of our future clients yet. We gotta announce those, but we have like some really fun ones that are coming up that I'm excited about. And working on segments for Ludology podcasts. I've got like our monthly spot on there, and a few other things so…I'll be going to UCon which is a local convention in Michigan in November, and then also to Motor City Comicon. And then that's also in November, and then in December, I'll be giving a talk or panel kind of presentation at PAX Unplugged. So those are a few other things that are kind of coming up. So Wyrmworks Publishing Awesome. Steph Busy! Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, exciting. Yeah. All right. So we will have all your contact information in our show notes. But where is the one best place you'd like people to start to learn more about you or to contact you? Steph TtTRPGKids.com. So it's all one word. It's kids with an S at the end, not a Z. So that's TTRPGKIDS.com. And I've got everything on the site there. So Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, Well Steph, thank you so much for coming on the show. Everyone, check out the links in the show notes. Steph Yeah, thank you for having me. It was good chatting. Wyrmworks Publishing I so appreciate Steph coming on the show, had a really great time, and I hope that those of you who are watching and listening did too. Now, huge thanks to all of our patrons who support us through our Patreon. Big shout out the for our new patron that just I appreciate so much. Big thanks to ofearthandiron for your support. Your ongoing support, from all of you, gives us the encouragement to keep up this work. 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And if you, like me, think everyone needs to hear this, pass it on to your social media friends and your social circles, and don't forget those podcasts ratings. They're super, super important. Thank you so much for joining us to make lives better with tabletop role playing games. And to close this out, I would love to hear about your experience playing TTRPGs with kids. Leave a comment on YouTube or send me an email. dale@wyrmworkspublishing.com