Wyrmworks Publishing How can tabletop roleplaying games help us learn about each other? Welcome to Gaining Advantage. Wyrmworks Publishing Welcome to Gaining Advantage. We are using roleplaying games like Dungeons & Dragons to help you make lives better. We are featuring, right now if you're watching this before Christmas and before the end of the year, we have two holiday bundles that we are participating in with a bunch of other really talented roleplaying game developers and publishers. First of all, there is, until Christmas, a 24 for $24 bundle as a whole bunch of different… it's got D&D, it's got just all different game systems connected with it, resources from all of them, only $24 for 24 different supplements and game systems and all kinds of things like that. So I encourage you to check that out as a huge savings over buying even a small number of them individually. And a great opportunity to experience some new games. 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You know shipping, you try to ship something out now, chances are it is not going to get where you want it by whatever holidays are part of your celebrations unless you get something electronic. Alright, and so we've got a couple different resources for you. Wyrmworks Publishing First of all, we have Wyrmworks Publishing gift cards at our store. You can pick those up in any denomination you want. We also have the Wyrms Workshop. And so if you're not familiar with that, this is an opportunity to work with our artists and developers to create a character, a monster, even like up to a city, all different kinds of resources. And then those resources will become canon in our campaign world. They will get published in a future book or other kind of resource like that. And, and you get credited for it. And so there's a great opportunity for, if there's something that you really want your idea to be shared and put out there and published. Or if you have as a gift to be able to give that experience to somebody else, and this is something that a lot of people enjoy, to say, "I want you whoever it is my loved one to be able to to work with someone and have your idea created and put out there," and and so there's just it's a fun experience and and it's really kind of a once in a lifetime thing, and so I encourage you to take a look at that and see whether that is something that would work well for you for somebody in your life that they would enjoy. And all those links are in the show notes. Wyrmworks Publishing And so with all that, let's get on to our interview Wyrmworks Publishing So much of D&D is based on Western European mythology and culture, but what about the rest of the world? The more we learn about the rest of the world, the better we can make our D&D games. But what about D&D resources that help us learn about the world around us? Today, we welcome Rob Martin from Secret Garden Games to talk about a currently running Kickstarter to help you do that. Welcome, Rob. Rob Martin Hey, how's it going? Wyrmworks Publishing Would you like us to know about you personally, specifically speaking to the tabletop role playing game crowd? Rob Martin First of all, this is the first interview I've done since I got my job 24 years ago. So please excuse me if I'm not particularly savvy with answering questions while on camera. But other than that I've been I started playing Dungeons & Dragons in 1990, '91, something like that? And I've played every edition since then. And a million other kinds of games. And over the pandemic, like so many of us, I started thinking about some other things that I wanted to spend my time doing, and my stimulus checks went straight to putting together the setting of WakeSong and Bukana. Wyrmworks Publishing Well, so tell us about that. Rob Martin Yeah, so WakeSong is just kind of my umbrella term for the work we're doing. Hopefully it'll one day become a fully fleshed out setting like, maybe not like Forgotten Realms, but you get the idea. Bukana, which means gateway in Tagalog, is the region of our world that is inspired by Philippines and Indonesia. And I've been, it might not surprise anybody looking that I am not actually Filipino. But luckily, I found my unicorn in Karl Gaverza of Filipino…phspirits.com, who goes out into the islands. He is Filipino, and he works to preserve indigenous languages. And while he's out there, he catalogs and interviews people for spirits, monsters, elves, dwarves, all kinds of creatures. He's got 2500+ catalogued, and so we thought it'd be a great idea to to figure out which ones would be best to shoot a fireball at. Wyrmworks Publishing Of course! Rob Martin Yeah, he he's my unicorn not just because he's a linguist and Filipino mythologist, but he's also a dungeon master. He's been he's been running games for years. And I've got I got the chance, he came out to Jersey to meet, to sit down with us and just an amazing guy. And it's so good. Wyrmworks Publishing Cool. So you're in the WakeSong Kickstarter, what, it's been two years now just about? Rob Martin Yeah, about two years ago. Took a little while to get finished. Turns out I am making this up as I go along like most adults, and don't tell the kids but but, yeah, we had a lot of learning moments, especially when it came to graphic layout and whatnot. But yeah, we finally got that out, and we were able to show everybody just what WakeSong was, and give a little give a little crunch to go with it with the 12 subclasses and miscellaneous species for players. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, it's just it's a really nice variety. And, and the art is just fantastic. Rob Martin I love it. I loved it. And we didn't put many guard rails in that book, particular on the different styles. So you got a really wide range from an almost comic booky cleric of the soul to to the I love the mambabarang on the Brood Mother Warlock. I love her so much. That's from Paper Cat, and luckily we got her to work on our next book too, a little bit. Wyrmworks Publishing That's awesome. Yeah, I just, man I can just page through looking at the art, you know? Rob Martin I'm glad you like it. We take the art really seriously. We make sure that people have the real world cultures that's that's giving us so much inspiration are the ones that doing those illustrations, in addition to the consultations and all the extra help we have. And it just makes I mean, it's a win win win situation. I mean, we get to make a book that has details that I won't even think to ask about like, I don't know what I don't know, right? So but this is their culture. This is their story. And I'm just kind of giving it space. Hence the secret garden of the Secret Garden Games. And it's… give them some room and some light, and let them and let them tell their story. Wyrmworks Publishing That's great, and you know, this is important. You know, it's important that we get the stories out there, alright, there's so much richness, and like I said at the beginning, this is like Greek and Norse is kind of all you ever hear and and stuff and it just it gets old and and there's just when you look at the rest of the world, it's completely a different perspective. It's not just like, "Oh, we've got kind of the same thing but with different names or something like that." Rob Martin Yeah, completely different. Completely different phylum of myth and whatnot. Like, oh, we just had Pax Unplugged out here in Philly, where we had a booth to let people know about the Kickstarter and a quote I kept coming to mind was you know of a few years ago, Americans rediscovered Krampus, and they think that he's such a delightfully menacing creature to add to the jolly time and all that. Their entire culture is where we got 50 Krampuses. You think Krampus is cool. Look at the Kumao in the Philippines man. You're gonna get your kids to behave, and I'd rather frankly I'd rather Krampus was getting me if I was a kid but I know what the Kumao does or the Bugsok or a million other creatures that are just so delightfully nasty and, and lend themselves to folk horror. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, and it's, it's not just, you know, I mean like you've got all new creatures, all right, that are just just completely different perspectives, and so it can, not only does it provide just a new whole bunch more variety, because it comes from, if you're from Western European descent and Western culture and stuff, you sort of have your own mindset and, and you don't even realize it, but no matter how creative you are, you still have borders on your imagination. Rob Martin Of course Wyrmworks Publishing Because there are thought processes that have just are just so completely different. And it's not that it like it's just because different parts of the world, different cultures, different lived experiences and stuff. You just have different ways of thinking. And, um, but when you're able to take those different processes and you know, and bring them together and listen to other people, it expands your view of the world, expands your understanding of people. You know, it helps you understand, you know, maybe like people that you disagree with about something like that, if you actually get to know them and get their perspective, you go, "Oh, well, maybe I agree with you now, maybe, maybe I don't, but at least I know where you're coming from," you know, or, or whatever. You know, I mean, we live in such a divided world where everybody kind of likes to get their own ideas and then they just sort of shut down, like, "Okay, this is my box now." And, but the more we can bring new perspectives in, just the the broader our awareness of the world of reality, you know, just looking at other ways of thinking and stuff that that just expand our capacity to learn and imagine. Rob Martin Yeah, I recognized that this was something I wanted to do make role playing games. And then I had, I think "found my calling" is a bit over the top, but that I knew I was in the right place. When I'm reading all of these about all these cultures and all these folkloric beliefs and mythologies, you know, first you start out on Wikipedia, and then you start spreading, and I've got way too many books. I knew it when, every time I woke up in the morning, I'm like, "Oh, I can't wait to see what what I find now," and everything, "Oh my god, this is so great. Oh, this is fantastic. This was fantastic." And I was just excited all the time learning these new things and I felt jipped by our by our education system. But yeah, we I didn't even know these things were around growing up in the 80s and 90s. The only thing I knew about the Philippines was that Imelda Marcos had like 1000s of shoes. That's basically it. And then you know through the years I as I met more and more Filipino Americans all all in nerd culture at game stores that I worked at or just hung out and I realized just how D&Dable…is that a word? Wyrmworks Publishing It is now! Everyone knows what it means, so… Rob Martin Yeah, it's like… it's lends itself to fantasy role playing so much. I mean, how I had to, I had to cut down on the number of elf ancestries and Warlock subclasses that I was going to provide. Get myself to save something for the expansions. Wyrmworks Publishing And you know, I think it's important, this I imagine, there's a lot of people listening to this, that they look like us and, and are saying, "Okay, but you know, I'm nervous about, about playing this, uh, you know, I want to be respectful and stuff," and I've had so many, I mean, just like in the past couple of weeks, I've had so many conversations with people about that. We've had guests on before, that are people of color that say, "Hey, you know, there's some, you know, yeah, you can play these, these games that are rooted in, in other cultures and things like that, because it's how you learn and of course, be respectful and, and think about you know, learning about people and avoid stereotypes and tropes and things like that." Rob Martin And please don't use accents. There's no way it's not gonna go wrong. Please do not, if you're playing if you're playing a if you're playing a character, inspired by non European like, just just don't, no matter how well intentioned, Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. But then the other thing also is that these are fictional worlds. And so it's also important to recognize that while these are inspired by and draw from real world cultures, you know, I if I if I'm playing a character that is inspired by Greek mythology, because I'm not Greek, and, you know, and, and so, you know, we're, we're always playing characters that are outside who we are, and so we can still learn and you know, and it's the difference of, are you you know, are you taking something, you know, that belongs to someone else and claiming it as yours or are you, you know, giving the credit where credit is due? And so I really appreciate, you know, the way that through all of your work, that you are giving the credit where it's due. You are you're, you're amplifying the voices, of the people, you know, that are the source of this information and not just, you know, claiming it as your own and, and stuff like that. So, I this is really cool. I love that, and it's just, it just opens up a whole nother world. I mean, sort of literally, Rob Martin Yeah, I mean, and, I mean, I wouldn't want to, I hope I never come across as being, "Mine," you know. It this is I'm just helping to put pieces, other people's pieces, together. So to put it into the whole WakeSong setting, or to talk to them about how we can convert it into a mechanical effect. Certainly when it… we have to tread very carefully in a lot of these things, particularly when we're dealing with living belief systems. It's yeah, it's sort of easy to deal with something like ancient Egypt. Whilst there are some Neopagans that still pay homage to some of the Osiris and various other gods of the world, by and large you know, there's no active temples to Ra in my knowledge, so you get a little more leeway, but when we're dealing with, for instance, the south of the Philippines is Islamic. And so how do we help show show that aspect of Filipino identity these days? We're certainly not using Islam. You know, you don't avoid or you don't use living religions. And yeah, we just have to, we have to tread carefully and not claim anything that isn't ours. Oh but that doesn't mean we can't play in their fictional settings, as long as we do it with respect. I mean, I've played women before. I played nonbinary characters before. I could never get my head around playing an elf that gives a damn about being a boy or girl after the first couple hundred years. You're looking for something a little less confining. Wyrmworks Publishing I want to circle back to what you said about, you know, so we were robbed in school. Because I, you know, I've been listening to podcasts about interviewing… people of color talking about sort of Black history in the United States, and sort of all you hear about in public school is slavery and things related to that, and so it's Black history becomes what White people did to Black people, and so like we still make it about us. And and, but like there's there's so much more and and there's all these amazing stories, and you know, so there's a few of these movies like Hidden Figures and things like that, where where we get to see some of the stories that that we just weren't taught in school and and, but yeah, I mean, we're talking about the whole world. I mean, there's so much history and there's so just amazing stories and, and just just cultures that we know, from just from American public school, you know, we just know nothing about them. And so this is a phenomenal teaching tool. Man, I mean, to be able to sit down you know, with with your kids or you know, with adults for that matter, you know, that that never learned all these things. And, you know, and there's, of course, there's always more to learn. There's always more cultures and, and things that we don't have experience with or or, or that we have very little in, you know, so there's always more to learn about everything and so just have these opportunities to to learn in a in a really fun way. You know, it's when you're when you're facing these things head on, you're going to remember it better. Rob Martin Yeah, sure. Wyrmworks Publishing It's a fantastic teaching. Tool. My My daughter was she was getting ready. I was helping her put a character together for D&D club at school. And, and so I was talking to her about the different different spells she has and stuff like that and managing spell slots and things and, and describing the different abilities and, and she's like, "I can't wait to see the bad guys' faces when I nail him with this!" And I'm, "Well, I mean, you don't actually see…no, you'll see them. You have a very vivid imagination, you will see them." Rob Martin Yeah, so I mean to speak about this as a learning tool. I mean, it's been nothing but a learning tool for me putting it together and and so a lot of this will I mean, learning about a monster here and there isn't going to teach you about a culture, but hopefully with our bestiary, we've done two page spreads that, in fact, we just did an update I think earlier tonight about the anatomy of our two page spread, and it gives you some insight as to what space these creatures take up in a fantasy world, and and I think that you'll get, if I did it right, if we if we achieved our goals, then we've put we put a lot of reading in between the lines, like you'll get you'll get an idea of cultures that might have vastly different ideas than we do about a lot of things. I mean, one of the one of the first big philosophical hurdles I hit when we started working on Bukana was that of head hunting. And this was a prevalent, I mean, most cultures at some point in the past, including the Celts dealt with the taking of heads as trophies, and it's a bit gruesome. And our modern sensibilities will definitely have us vilify this act, but that's not what, they that's not how they felt. That's not what they were thinking, and so we had to deal with, you know, how do you not demonize and vilify these, to us, quote, barbaric practices. With that, and luckily we have magic to help deal with things and then that sort of thing, but when you see when you see something in our, in our book, like the Kumao who I mentioned earlier, who helps collect blood for the blood trade, tend to be bad guys. But, but, you see kind of the space that these creatures take up in the, in the culture and the mindset of the people who whose folklore it is, right. And so I believe that if you read through the book, especially even just this monster book before we even started talking a lot about culture and whatnot, you'll see you'll see these through lines and these ideas that we just, we might not we might not think of in our Western modern society on the other side of the world. And and I hope that the learning, the most important thing you can learn from these isn't exactly what a Anggitay is versus a tikbalang, but that you just see that there's other perspectives in the world, that there's other ways of doing things, and they're no less right than the way you were raised or what you you were taught to believe. Wyrmworks Publishing Awesome, awesome. So great. All right. You just rescued a genie from the hands of an efreeti, and it offers you three wishes to achieve your goals to make the world better. What do you wish for? Rob Martin So when I read these questions yesterday, this is the one the one question that I spent most of my time thinking about, like I only get three. With all the problems, I get three, I better get my best bang for the buck for each one. All right, so let's start with I would cure humanity of their hardwired, aggressive tribalism, this idea that there's an us versus them that we are right and because you're not us, you must be wrong. That might give us some room to actually start having empathy for people that don't look like us that don't sound like us that don't have practices like us. My second wish. What was my my sec… well, was the ecological one. At first, I thought I would I would just undo the past century of industrialization and carbon emissions. But I realized that everybody would just take that as an excuse not to do anything anymore. Like, oh, that's been cured. So I boiled it down to I wish our fossil fuel reserves were reduced to the point where we only had about 20 years left and that would really spur our jump to renewables. And it would also get that carbon out of our hands because we can't be trusted with it. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah. You're, you're dead on to because when you know when it came to the reason we're driving mostly gas powered cars instead of electric is because at the time, you know, originally both were about equally available. And but petroleum was cheap, and quicker and cheaper. Yeah, so it came down to expediency, not like technology. So yeah, if we didn't, if it were all of a sudden more expensive and not readily available, yeah, we'd have to get creative real fast. Rob Martin And this last one, I just want to struggle with a bit. I think. I would wish that everyone were seen and heard. So no matter what side of any argument you're on, so much of the fear that leads to hate. I don't want to sound like Yoda. But Wyrmworks Publishing It's true. Rob Martin It's true though, right? This truth comes from the fact that people are not…they don't feel like they're being seen. They don't feel like they're in control of their own destiny. And so whether you're somebody somebody at a an angry rally, who thinks that somebody else is taking over your country, and that you don't matter anymore, or whether you are a person of color, who quite literally has not been seen and heard enough in this culture, so many problems come from people just not believing that anybody cares about them. And as long as and if everybody is seen and heard then that means their their concerns, their needs, their stories actually contribute to how we move forward as societies. Yeah, so everything's, sure you're seen and heard when when you're rich when you're a powerful company when or hell just when you're a white man in America, you're seen, and I just wish everybody had that. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah, yeah, to not only be able to… it's that if people could, could be loved and valued the way they deserve to be. And to know that they are. Rob Martin Sure, you'd have to know, because I mean that that's what's going to affect their actions. I mean, you could be getting heard all you want. I talk to people, I work in agriculture. So I work in a very rural area. And so I hear people all the time who talk like they are not part of the considerations. Meanwhile, all I see is them being the only ones that are considered, you know, middle aged white men, like this guy. They don't feel that they're being seen and heard just because other people are also being seen and heard now, and it's not a zero sum game. It's not. If you if you get what you need, that means I'm not getting what I need. We're a rich and powerful country, and we have the means to…when I start talking about white privilege and my own and my privilege as a straight cis male in America, certain conversationalist start getting annoyed with me. They think like, "Oh, my, your life was easy just because you're a white man?" No, but wasn't as hard as it could have been. And it's not that I want to give up my privilege. I love my privilege. I just wish everybody had it. We have the money. We have the bandwidth. We have the resources. Everybody could, could at least in America, I mean, hopefully beyond. We could all share the privilege of not having the extra headwind against our progress. Everybody could get the social lubricant that we that we glide through life on even when even when it's hard, we still have you know, we still have people helping us or at least not hindering us just because of the color of our skin or, or Wyrmworks Publishing Right, yeah, what it comes down to is like how many obstacles do you have in front of you and how many of those are there just because of the nature of, you know, who you were born to? Or where you're where you were born, you know, and things like that those things that those obstacles you were born with? Unknown Speaker I've said that before. I've said that about people who were, say, white supremacists, or really hardcore nationalists, like, so your crowning achievement was just happened to be born where you were, that you piqued that birth. Okay. That's great. You didn't do anything to to come up to come to have your most prized identity. Wyrmworks Publishing That's great. All right. What message would you like to give gamers who don't see much or any representation of their culture in role playing games? Rob Martin That's a tough one. I mean, it's getting better. But it's still it's still glacially slow, and I feel a bit of…I hope I don't come across as hypocritical being a white guy sitting here telling people of color what they should do, because they're not seen, but just just know that things are changing. People want to help things change. And hopefully, hopefully the momentum builds to so that everybody can see themselves as a hero. I mean, that's, that's why I named the Heroes of WakeSong book I did with the those 12 subclasses each from a different culture. If you never felt that, because you saw because all the heroes look like Superman and Batman and Cyclops, that if that ever led you to believe that maybe, maybe, you know, that's who heroes were, that's not exclusively who they are. Heroes are like you too. And more and more heroes are going to look like you. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. Alright. So what message would you like to give gamers who want to learn more about other cultures through roleplaying games? Unknown Speaker I've been backing so many Kickstarters on things whether it's…I really should have written these down. Look hard out there. There. There is now African settings. There are there's a Korean setting that I backed that it's fantastic. Sina Una is another Filipino inspired setting for 5e. I see that Paizo for Pathfinder does. I see a lot of some of my some of the monsters I have penciled in for future books in other regions of WakeSong are already in Paizo. Yeah, so they have Asuras and and various kinds of jinn and, and all that, they already have scorpion people right out of Sumerian out of Sumerian mythology. And so this stuff's out there. And, again, I'm not I'm not a big redditor, but I'm told that you can find a lot of, if you go looking, you'll find it online. It certainly isn't as much as you need it to be or how much it should be. But yeah, I'd give those a look and of course ours. Stay tuned. Hopefully you'll see more more representation as we expand out from Bukana. Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, so What projects are you working on next after this? Unknown Speaker Oh, so the monster book's the big one because, I mean with with having Karl as as my co-author, we just, it was an opportunity to do a monster book. I think moving forward, we're going to do significantly smaller books that have appeal for both GMs and players. I know monster books are generally a GM thing, even though there are playable species in that one. Yeah, we're we're knocking a few things around. We're looking at a book that expands maritime, whether it's naval combat or ship to ship boarding actions, and then we use the background of expanding the archipelago out from the Philippines or Indonesia Bukana to islands a little further away get into Polynesian territory and Malaysian territory, that sort of thing. I know we want to do we want to explore the Feywild and the Shadowfell either together or separately in Bukana. There's a lot of fey, a lot of monstrosities in Filipino and Indonesian myth. And yeah, hopefully when it's all said and done, we'll we'll have enough of the smaller books that we can then combine the player resources into a player book, if that's the only thing you're interested in and scenarios and monsters into to other into other publications. Wyrmworks Publishing So we'll have all your contact information in our show notes, but where's the one best place you'd like people to start learn and start to learn more about you or to contact you? Unknown Speaker Well, right now for the next two weeks, I believe it ends at the end of February. February? End of December! Kickstarter for the Bukana Bestiary is the best place, but I prefer Instagram I like you said earlier, I take my art seriously. My art, mine because I ordered it, I take the art very seriously, and I love showing it all. I love it, the work that our that our illustrators do is fantastic. I mean, you see this Markupo and behind us fighting a Garuda by Gladys Domalaon I hope I didn't butcher her name, but so good. We have Brian Valeza of Magic: the Gathering and Pathfinder and D&D fame. And he does he tend to do our covers, just, I love showing it off. I love showing it off. I'm so proud that I got to pay them to to make something for everybody based on their culture and and I think they enjoy it, too, if they're not BSing me. Wyrmworks Publishing Awesome. All right. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Everyone. Check out those links in the show notes and if the if you're watching or listening to this when the campaign is still going, definitely go check out that Kickstarter. It's just, it's really amazing. Rob Martin Thanks a lot. Dale. Been a pleasure. Wyrmworks Publishing Rob, thanks so much for coming on the show. Really, check out that Kickstarter, it's just so amazing. Meanwhile, oh, and this and if you're catching this afterward, go check it out. Look for the links to get either the preorder or or to get it after the fact and see what's available now. Wyrmworks Publishing A huge thank you to our patrons through our Patreon. I just really appreciate all of you. I want to thank you so much for your support throughout this year. It's been an amazing year, and we're going to be coming out soon with a list of all the amazing things that you have accomplished with us this year. It's It's just…I'm astounded by it. And and so I just want to thank all of you for helping us make that happen. And if you are not a patron yet, I encourage you to check that out, because it's just a tremendous opportunity. I mentioned at the beginning of the show the Wyrm's Workshop. There's actually a really great opportunity with our Patreon to get those credits for the Wyrm's Workshop at a discounted price and also to donate some of those credits to others who can't afford it. Also, thanks to our patrons, speaking of donations, we add Community Copies to our store every month for those who can't afford our products. So if that's you, you can sign up for our weekly emails to get notified when they come available. And this month alone, we added $635 worth of free copies. So there's plenty there. If you are looking for one or more of those titles, you can go to our store, look for Community Copies, and get what you need. They're there for you, thanks to our patrons, and so I really appreciate that. 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Wyrmworks Publishing Thank you, everyone for an amazing year. Thanks for joining us to make lives better with D&D!