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Wyrmworks Publishing You might have heard that Wizards of the Coast is releasing a 50th anniversary book on the history of D&D. But there's another book being released May 14, that will also celebrate the anniversary from a broader cultural perspective, Fifty Years of Dungeons & Dragons from MIT Press. Joining us are Pre Sidhu a PhD student at the University of Sydney, and José Zagal, a professor at the University of Utah's Entertainment Arts and Engineering program. And together they and their colleague, Marcus Carter, have edited a comprehensive exploration of D&D, its legacy and impact on gaming and popular culture as it celebrates its 50th anniversary. Welcome Pre and José! Premeet Sidhu Hey, everyone, happy to be here. José Zagal Hi, thanks for the invite. Super excited to be here. Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, so what would you like us to know about each of you personally, specifically, speaking to the tabletop gaming crowd? Pre, you want to go first? Premeet Sidhu Yeah, sure. So for me personally, I've always been really interested in storytelling games and roleplaying games even from a young age. So some of the series I grew up with, like Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, World of Warcraft, but I didn't actually get into the tabletop scene until a little bit later in my life. I was introduced to it while I was a bookseller, working at a bookshop. And I remember my friend coming up to me and being like, oh, like, "I'm about to start up this Dungeons and Dragons game; do you want to join?" and I was initially a little bit terrified because I was like, "Wow, I've never done this before." But I still play Dungeons and Dragons with that same group eight years later, and I am so glad that I got introduced to this hobby. Wyrmworks Publishing Cool. Jose? José Zagal Wow. Um, I'm the grognard I guess in the room maybe. So I first started playing Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, in the mid 80s. And it's it's been a while since I've played D&D but always kept a foot in the door, what's going on in the tabletop space. Because let's see, the last thing I played recently for a significant amount of time is I decided to run a Cyberpunk 2020 campaign that we wrapped up in 2020, which was not the plan, there we go. We thought it was there's some poetic justice to that. I've been a big fan of, of D&D and all kinds of tabletop roleplaying games since since I was a kid, essentially, that's part of the reason why I'm here in the sense of being a professor in games and doing research on games and so on. And indeed it's partly blamed for that. Wyrmworks Publishing That's great. And I started in the early 80s. So I may have preceded you by a couple of years, so… José Zagal Yes! I'm not the oldest one in the room! Wyrmworks Publishing All right. So tell us about 50 years of Dungeons & Dragons and what readers can expect from this book. Premeet Sidhu Yeah, so 50 years of Dungeons & Dragons is a collection of essays that reflects on the legacy of Dungeons and Dragons, and also critically looks at some parts of the legacy as well. We've got a whole bunch of sections that look at Dungeons & Dragons histories, so things like mechanics, and exploration. We've got a section that looks at the influence of D&D on other media and on culture in general, but also what culture and media has influenced Dungeons & Dragons to become. We've got a section that asks readers to critically reflect on their own play of Dungeons and Dragons. And we kind of wrap up the book with a speculative look at the future of Dungeons & Dragons where readers can roll their own future. José Zagal So different chapters are written by different people. And we're really trying to straddle the line, and hopefully we've threaded the needle right and in terms of balancing so the what is happening in the world of academia so scholars who are looking at D&D and so on, and you know, what's happening in the world of people that love the game and aren't scholars and just want to dig a little deeper. And so we're really trying to celebrate D&D, not in a, "Rah rah, like, let's everything is wonderful, everything's amazing." There will be plenty of places that were doing, that will be doing that. Rather, we want to celebrate it in a way that we feel is sort of celebrating the depth and what is actually happening with this game or what it has happened over the years. And sort of It's a celebration that comes from from love, but also a place of caring and real interest. So we're all fans but we're also fans and scholars. And so that's why I'm really excited in what we've been able to draw contributions from people that are coming from different parts of life, and I think we just hope people will be hopefully pleasantly surprised in some of the chapters and hopefully other chapters will be really thoughtful and they will get them to think about the game in ways they hadn't thought before. So like I said, hopefully we thread that needle. Wyrmworks Publishing Right. So part of that whole threading the needle thing, I mean, this has been published by MIT Press. So how, I mean, these are very intelligent people writing these articles and, you know, that sort of that raises my, "Okay, this is going to like take some work to sit down and read this and parse it and that," you know, how easy to read is this? Is this something that where it's like, if you look at for a good intellectual challenge, or, or what how is the the approach of the book? Premeet Sidhu Yeah, I'd say as part of like our editorial work, we've tried to make the chapters as accessible as possible. Some of them are written in a scholarly way. So they may challenge you, but hopefully, you'd be able to pick up the book and pick up any chapter and get the broad gist of it. José Zagal That's one of the nice things about an edited collection is that you don't have to read it from cover to cover. You can start at any chapter, whichever one draws your attention. And some of the chapters aren't academic at all, like Pre said, we end with one that is speculative. It's speculative and fun, but there's also an introductory chapter that's basically an interview with Ryan Dancey. So I think there's enough there that that you should be able to find at least one chapter that can draw you in and then hopefully say, "Well, okay, let's try the next one. Let's try the next one." And getting way in. This is not the academic book that it's all. "Here's all this theory and all these references to people you don't know with last names that you can't pronounce that haven't…." No, we're definitely aiming for. I think what we would call the fan who is curious and wants to wants to dig a little bit deeper, in addition to the scholars, like that. We're trying to hit both these audiences. Wyrmworks Publishing Sure. No, I mean, and that sounds really great too, because it's not just, it's not just candy, then you know, it's like this this stuff that you can chew on you know, it's like if you're if you're watching TV, if you just all you ever watch are sitcoms, it can get, you know, just you feel the shallowness after a while and and you need a good solid drama, you know, to or like a documentary or something to kind of sink your teeth into. And so it sounds like it's going to be a nice mix of that. José Zagal Yep. Wyrmworks Publishing Cool. That's great. So were there any surprises or insights that especially resonated with you? Premeet Sidhu Yeah, I'll go first. I think each chapter kind of has its own little gem of insight if you're interested. For me personally, being from an Australian context, I'm always really really curious to see how D&D is played all across the world and at different tables. And so there is a chapter in the collection by Kellynn Wee, which looks at the localization and adaptation of D&D in the Southeast Asian context of Singapore. And so that was really, really interesting for me to read about. Wyrmworks Publishing As a publisher, who I mean, we and I've got a lot of friends who are publishers, we have a really hard time cracking the Asian market. And so just you know, personally, Oh, okay. All right. I have to read that. I'm sorry. Go ahead. José Zagal Yeah, no, I think one of the things that's been interesting for me is that there's, well, there's three of us on the book. So it was Pre, there's myself, and we have a second, another editor, Marcus Carter. And I think if you'd asked each of us individually, which is your favorite chapter, or the chapter that surprises most, which chapter do you think is the most one that had the greatest impact, we would all disagree. We'd all pick different ones. And I think that's, I see that as a positive, and this is it means that we are trying to hit lots of different audiences and so on. Because I've been playing D&D, or have played D&D since the early years, I was really excited about we have a chapter by Evan Torner that looks into the evolution of combat and combat systems in D&D over the all the different editions. And even though I have I have all the books; I have all the all the core books for all the editions, sort of kind of enlightening and kind of eye opening to see him like actually break it down and say, "Look, actually the combat system is really different. Things have changed," and it's not just like the number crunching is or you go this way or that way. It's it's like no they are fundamentally different combat systems in a way that I hadn't appreciated. So I was really excited by that one. I also was also super excited to read the Ryan Dancy interview, cuz I remember the controversy around sort of the OGL. And then a lot of people sort of talk about how it was a great idea, but it was a terrible idea. And now what caused the sort of this economic collapse that is now forgotten, perhaps by many, I thought was interesting to see to hear from him and say, Well, what was he thinking back at the time? And what were the goals? When he's now in a position where he doesn't have to be like the spokesperson for a company where everything needs to be you know, was run by legal or whatever? Basically, yeah, this is what we're trying to do and if I think it might have been so on, so I was really excited to read that. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, the OGL controversy just consumed my life for a month. And, in fact, this just this past Monday night, it came up again, it just at our D&D group, and it was it was huge. And yet a lot of people are completely oblivious to it. And but it's it had it in a lot of people said, "Oh, well, you know, it's just gonna go away and everyone's gonna forget about it," and stuff and I would contend that it had massive repercussions on the game, on the industry, you know, going forward. It really will. And people might not realize when certain decisions are made and products are produced, and things like that, that that is that, you know, maybe that wouldn't have happened or would have been very different if that that whole debacle hadn't happened. And so, yeah, and and having hearing from Dancy during the controversy was interesting. And so having his reflections afterward, looking back on it, and just so it's always interesting, looking at the, the history and sort of what was the end of, you know, a particular decision, like the creation of the OGL as opposed to you know, what was the effect of it? And because there's always unintended consequences and stuff so, so ya know that, that sounds fascinating. And definitely, just a valuable read. You know, so many of these sound like I love a good story or essay where you have, okay, here's some information. And you can look at it from lots of different angles, and gain different things. And so, I mean, you know, I'm in a position where I'm a publisher, and so, you know, I'm thinking from that standpoint, I'm also a gamer and I'm thinking from that standpoint, and you know, and so, the and also, you know, I, I play with different groups, and things like that and so, all just all these different perspectives, you know, that we can have on these and looking at, and not only from a, a business, or just like an entertainment perspective, but, you know, there's that whole social perspective of how the influence on culture just astounds me what huge influence D&D has had on the broader culture. And yeah, you just you're not gonna get that from a just from like a history of the game kind of thing. José Zagal So yeah, it's hard because a lot of those retrospectives will focus on on a few key people, for example, and they'll focus on you know, sales numbers and that kind of stuff. I'm in the video game space a lot, because I teach at a university where most of my students want to work in the game, in the video games industry. And it is always the case that D&D ends up being like, Oh, this game right here that has nothing to do with the D&D on the surface. It's it's like the seven degrees of Kevin Bacon, but it's even shorter. It's like three degrees of D&D. You know, there's always three jumps and you get so someone you either get to the game itself through some mechanic or something that somebody borrowed or you get immediately to someone who's like, "Oh, yeah, I'm, I've worked on this game. And when I was a kid, I played a lot of D&D. I was a Dungeon Master. This is what got me started on this path." Like it is always it's one or the other. It's sometimes obviously both. Wyrmworks Publishing Oh, yeah, yeah. And there's, I mean, yeah, the effect on the video game industry. I mean, it's actually convenient for me when I was trying, like as a kid, or more as like kind of a a young adult trying to explain to people what D&D is. And as, as the videogame industry grew, then I could say, Okay, well, you know, yeah, like Final Fantasy or you know, stuff like that where you can say, Okay, well, you know what that is, that's a roleplaying game, right? That's just the video game version of D&D. And you know, and so then you say that, and, "Oh, okay!" You know, and, and that was helpful. So it was interesting to see that to, to sort of flip it and explain. Because, as Wizards of the Coast has realized, that that the real money is in video games. José Zagal Yep. Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, so um, so I know that the you mentioned that the final essay talks about the future, but also I'm interested in your perspective. to glean from from that article, but but also from your own thoughts, and how do you see D&D influencing lives and culture in the future? Premeet Sidhu Yeah, so I have a particular perspective as someone that researches a lot in the games and learning space, and that has had previous experiences as a high school teacher. I view a lot of the potential legacy of Dungeons & Dragons to be within the education space. There is a lot of great work already being done out there by educators themselves who bring Dungeons & Dragons in to help foster things like critical thinking and creativity and, you know, understanding relationship dynamics. But I think that it is an area of interest, particularly going forward. And I think that's where a lot of the social impact may lie. Wyrmworks Publishing Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think about my ADHD and let's just say that says it's genetic and, but but also, some my kids who are, even though they are adopted, that's something that they brought with them too, so they fit right in, you know, neurologically with the family, and and when I think about that, and the engagement, where, you know, you just stand in front of a room and talk and they're gone. Alright, but I probably was too, and but boy you engage with with something interactive like that, that stimulates their imagination, and stuff. I mean, yeah, the potential is just limitless. Premeet Sidhu Yeah, definitely. José Zagal Let's see on my end, I guess I have to start with a confession, which is, so this recent resurgence we've seen in D&D. Where it's sort of really taken off, in part perhaps or due because due to I'm going to call the phenomenon of sort of live streaming plus the live action play, the lets plays, the live play. I'm not up to date on all the lingo here. But basically, watching people play D&D live is something that I can't quite wrap my head around, in a sense of both how massive it is and how popular it is. And it sort of makes me wonder if, if this becomes sort of a new genre of media where, you know, we have cop shows, and we have dramas and there's a comedy and there's a sitcom and so on, and then yeah, there'll be like the D&D thing, which will be called that but you can imagine having some name and you just like, yeah, the the latest HBO show, called you know, London's in whatever's is out and that becomes the thing that is really part of the broader cultural sort of Zeitgeist phenomenon and kind of interwoven so I'm excited to see what that what that happens. And it will take I think a concerted effort to put that through might take a couple of years for the people running the shows to move into positions that sort of bigger media companies to say, no, no, no, this is actual thing that we need to like have, we need to have on our programming or on our streaming site or whatever. A lot of people also talked about AI. And sort of what is the AI going to do in terms of and a lot of it comes from the well I have AI like write book or do some artwork. I we've heard about this controversy in in, in the hobby space for sure. And I think a lot of people like I wonder if this means that, you know, there's two of us and we can have two AI partners and we can have some actual like a sort of the real sitting around the table experience with to AI and maybe even the Dungeon Master's an AI, and who knows. I think that's a dream for a lot of people and it'll be interesting to see if that actually happens and what it feels like to play a game in that way. I don't think we're there yet. But this could be, you know, five years time, maybe maybe 10 years. I don't know, maybe two years. I'd be happy to be surprised. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, I've I've seen people do that. I've seen people try it. And and the AIs, because they are sort of the kind of a lowest common denominator, you know, here's the the average of everything. You just get a lot of goblins and bandits. And, and they're not really good at weaving a coherent story. But um, but I mean, it's developing you know, I mean, you think how far we've come. It's hard to say. Your point about is this a new sort of mainstream entertainment genre. So maybe you've heard the recent news about Dimension 20. selling out Madison Square Garden, the ticket prices going through the roof and you know, there's they're saying, you know, this is they're like, competing with Taylor Swift. Obviously, as in one one is a you know, one event, not a global tour or anything like that. But I mean, as you know, depending how this goes, and I actually had an idea where how this could work, because, you know, I was I was watching the show Lego Masters. And Alright, so okay, well, here's your task, you need to build this and you've got X amount of time to do it and stuff. Now imagine if they took that same approach where you have a bunch of tables of players and and there's a DM at each table. And then there's like, there's judges, where they get scored on the creativity of their approach to the encounter that they're given or you know, or something like that. And you get to hear different people's creative approaches to different things. And, and so that I'm, I'm putting that out there. Anybody wants to steal that idea? They can. I would, you know, watch it religiously. And, and so but but yeah, you wonder how, how this will evolve over time when the movie came out, or when it was announced and all that kind of speculation on what it was going to be like, you know, there was that question of are they going to do like kind of a Princess Bride kind of thing where you have sort of narration and where it goes back and forth or something like that, and I think they made you know, the right decision to reach a mainstream audience at the time. But in the future, you know, could we see something like that? Wouldn't surprise me. I've seen some, some actual plays that using puppets and things like that, that with that method, and I thought, yeah, I like this. This is something that I can see people and as more people become aware of D&D, as it becomes more so that you don't have to explain what it is anymore, then when you start doing this, people go, okay, I get this and you know, and it's a way to, yeah, I also like it from the perspective of you know, with when you're watching any kind of animation, you don't, often unless you're really into actors and keeping track of who's who and all of that. You kind of lose track of who's the person behind the voice and to be able to connect with the actor and the character at the same time. Um, that could be really interesting. Just a way of consuming media. A lot of potential there. José Zagal Yeah, especially the characters are getting swapped around kind of regularly, so a lot of people might get attached with, or you want someone on the show for nine years or 20 years or whatever it is, and you sort of condense the they become the same one person, right, you confused the actor with, you know, with the character, but if it's, you know, every season is like, "Okay, we're gonna roll up some new characters," and here's and they see the same same player basically, but playing with the character. It is a mind shift there, I think, and kind of how do you relate to that like relating to the character? Yeah, so you really need to a player also Yes. And how wild is it to think that this is a thing that we can even be talking about? Like who would have thought you know, 20 years ago 30 years important even 50 years ago, right that this would be a thing that would be even considered like as a possibility. Wyrmworks Publishing Hey, you know, when I was in college in the in the early 90s, yeah. and having gone through the Satanic Panic, yeah. my dad finally said, "All right, you know, you're still like, this is how you're spending your your weekends, going down to the Student Union and playing and stuff. And there's been so much controversy and everything. Alright, can you just sit down and you know, run us through a game so that we can see what it is?" Yes! And so we actually played the old Marvel Superheroes game. José Zagal Oh, the TSR one? Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, yeah, FASERIP. And, and because it was it was easy. i It's one of the easiest to pick up systems that I've ever used. And, and so it was real quick to roll up characters and stuff. And I just ran them through a little encounter and stuff and we got all done and, and my dad said, "That's it?" And I said, "Yeah," And he goes, "What's wrong with that?" Nothing. That's the point. He said. "It's not really my thing. But I can see why you like it." So So yeah, but you know, even then, and you know, there's still plenty of people that have no idea what it is and, and in fact, ironically, who, people in my own family that think that it's a video game. José Zagal Yeah. Wyrmworks Publishing And they don't really understand the concept of tabletop games. Alright, so I'm kind of on that note. How would you respond to those who say it's just a game? What's the big deal? Premeet Sidhu Yeah, I think that yes, it is a game for some people. People can bring themselves to the table, play their characters and leave. And that is a valid experience. I think. Also, some people find deeper meaning in D&D, you know, they enjoy the connections, they enjoy creating the characters and it is a little bit more meaningful for them. And I think that is also a valid experience of play. I don't think that they need to be mutually exclusive. I think that D&D experiences are on a spectrum. Just because someone's experience is different to yours doesn't invalidate yours. José Zagal I think it's, you know, Superman, it's just a comic book character. What's the big deal? Like, yeah, there's no big deal. There's as much as you want to get into it and out of it, I think. Um, in fact, if anything, I worry about the people who perhaps take it too seriously. And I say that about anybody, right? Anybody who takes looks, one thing really, really seriously, becomes their entire life and consumes everything that they're doing, then I sort of wonder, I don't know. Maybe there's a healthier way to to live your life, right? Maybe there's some some balance that needs to be taken between, you know, it's called like the outside world and other people and other activities and so on. But I think that's one of the things about it is there is as much as you want to get into it, you know, D&D, and roleplaying games have been used in all these other contexts, not just education, but you know, sort of in therapy and community building activities and ways to get to people to relate to each other. And I think it's, that's fine. It's like, it's like books, right? It's like, here's this book. This book is garbage. Like Yep, I agree. This book is amazing. Also, I agree. This book is kind of fun, and it's for kids. So in that sense, D&D is amazingly plastic. You can have a fun 100% nonsense garbage session of D&D, and when I say garbage, I mean that with love, right? Like it's like junk food, like "I'm eating junk food and like, Oh, this is great." Or you can sit down like, "No, we're gonna have like this really thoughtful, super, in depth, roleplaying with the characters and some story that's, you know, tragic and meaningful and has this question and things about our own lives" Like both of these are fine. They're both D&D, and that's kind of what's wild and different and unusual about D&D as a game amongst other games. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, oh, that's such a great point, too. Because, you know, so often when we talk about the work that we're doing with trying to bring more representation and things like that, and you know, and people go, "You're ruining our game!" Like, I'm not touching your game. You do things however you want. We are offering a way that people can you know, if they want to, that they can do things, and they don't have to, And um, and you do you. Play the game the way you want. and, and guess what, in our home game, we don't always have that either. It depends on the day and it depends on the situation and stuff like that. But, you know, at the same time it's worth stopping to think about. José Zagal Yeah, I mean, it's always the case when I went to my first con sort of realizing, oh, there's so many people that play the game so differently from me, and and I remember sitting around a table where the people were complaining or arguing about whether this rule was applied or not. And I was I realized, like, Oh, I've never played with that rule at all, ever. There's like a whole section. I guess I've had to pick the go-to set of rules and nobody ever uses like the encumbrance rools, right? And here's this person. It's like, well, what about the encumbrance? I'm like, What? Is that a thing? And like, yes, it's page, you know, 52 to 95. And you know, like, Oh, okay. And that's cool. If you want to, like we use all the rules, I'm like no, we don't use… we have a totally different magic system. Like the books themselves, as always, I always told people, Hey, this is just like a framework. It's all about imagination. You need to do whatever works best for you and your friends, and you could put players even if it makes our lives as the company selling the game harder, right? Because I was like, this is something that they that they've known since the early days of TSR, which is you know, once you buy the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide and maybe the Monster Manual, like you don't need to buy anything else ever again. Right? That's all you need to and you're off to the races, play for 100 years. You don't need anything else, right? So the company, like, well no what do we do? How do we sell more product? I think a lot of people are like, Yep, we still play first edition. Cool. We still play second edition. Cool. We still play third. People you'll find in, you know, all of them. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's the it's, yeah, it's the plasticity of the game. You can play it how you want you play what rules you want. I think yeah, we mentioned the OGL before, and I think that's one of the things that came out of it is we're seeing more and more just sort of even as Wizards is coming out with their "not a new edition." But, but you know, there's there's lots of others, like Kobold Press and others who are saying, Okay, well, here's our take on it, you know, and um, you know, and so you can like you can play with a little bit of their stuff and a little bit of Advanced 5e, and, you know, and stuff you can kind of pick and choose what you like, see if it works together or not. And, and because it's a game, if you try something out and you go, yeah, that didn't really work too well together. It's like, well, we're gonna do it differently next week. And you can! Wyrmworks Publishing Yep. Wyrmworks Publishing All right. So what what message would you like to give to those who are deeply passionate about the enduring legacy of Dungeons & Dragons? Premeet Sidhu Yeah, I guess just building on that conversation that you're both having. I think my one message would probably be just make the game your own. Continue making it your own. Enhance the things that bring you joy, and remove the things that you don't like. But yeah, I think for D&D to have lasted for this long, it's because people made the game their own and they made it and play it the way that they enjoy. So yeah, just continue doing that. José Zagal Now, I guess I'd like to invite people to be open minded to new ways to appreciate the game they love. Here's a different take. This book gives you a different take on how to appreciate this game, and hopefully that will be sort of fresh and new and exciting for the readers and hopefully they'll see the game in a different light for them and in a light that's still coming from a place of deep appreciation and respect and love for the game and all that stuff. So that's that's what I hope readers will take away from it or potential readers. Buy the book, you know, we have to do all shilling we can, right? Wyrmworks Publishing Alright, so we're What projects are you working on next that you can talk about? Premeet Sidhu I think José has a pretty exciting. José Zagal Oh, wow. So I have another two of them. I have another book that's 100% academic, it's called. It's Roleplaying Game Studies. It's a book about roleplaying game studies, which is a sub-discipline within games research. And it's a book that was really about kind of saying Hey, you know, roleplaying games are their own thing, and they need they need to be studied and in the book, we go through on different how are roleplaying games looked at or or why are they interesting for psychologists; why are they interesting for economists; why are they interesting for English professors and communication professors and so on and so forth. So we have a second edition of that book coming out later this year, which I'm super excited for. Put together with like a huge army of collaborators and authors and so on. The other thing I'm working on, and this is really early, early, early stages is so in the mid 80s in in the UK, there was a series of fantasy books that took off like hotcakes was real well for here is called the Fighting Fantasy books. It did make their way to the US; they weren't as popular, weren't as big. In a nutshell, these are sort of Choose Your Own Adventure books, but for slightly older kids, you know, strong fantasy, you know, dark gritty fantasy, swords and sorcery, that kind of stuff, also science fiction and so on, but also with gameplay mechanics. So you were rolling dice, and you were you know, had the character sheet and your inventory and you had to solve puzzles and so on. In the UK, these books were both… the series was created by Steve Jackson — that's UK Steve Jackson — and Ian Livingstone who were the founders of Games Workshop, and it was, you know, back in the original days when they were basically selling D&D in the UK. It's a book about these game books and how they work and what kind of the system they have is and how the different authors over the years have explored kind of new design angles within the narrow constraints of a little paperback book, which these have 4 or so chapters and you know, as I go to page 52, and go to page 83, what kinds of cool interesting innovations in game design and the fantasy interactive storytelling do we see in these books for that, so that's what I'm working in. That's definitely an academic pet project. Wyrmworks Publishing Sure, but you know, at the same time, it's fascinating, because I've, you know, I was a huge fan of the Choose Your Own Adventure books. The D&D had the Endless Quest series. And I like those. I also have one I don't remember the name of the series, but it's, I mean, it's the book is on my refrigerator right now. But it was you actually use the a d6 and it was an X-Men book. José Zagal Oh. Wyrmworks Publishing And, and so it was it had that kind of choose your own adventure thing, but sometimes it was like, roll. And then and you'd kind of jump between characters as you flip the pages. And, but you'd have to roll too, and then you turn the page to whatever was depending on depending on the the result of your roll. So and it did have it came with a bookmark that had the different people's stats. José Zagal Scholastic had a bunch of those books, I think Scholastic or was it Dell published The Fighting Fantasy ones in the US. In the US, I think the Lone Wolf series was perhaps a bit more popular. Joe Dever, I think wrote a bunch of those. And again, these are sort of these were big in the 80s. And they've had to sort of they've been, I mean, they still exist and there are people still putting out new ones with more interesting things and the game book essentially exists. And it's interesting to see how actually game books have kind of crossed over with solo roleplaying, which is also like a growing trend in tabletop. So essentially, you're just like like, Okay, people are taking the idea of the game book and let's, let's let's get rid of some of the game mechanics and turn it into something new and fresh. So hopefully this book will tie in to also the bigger picture trends in like solo journaling, you know, tabletop roleplaying games that are really exciting to look at. Wyrmworks Publishing Cool. That sounds fascinating. So we will have all your I'm sorry, Pre, did you have anything that wanted to add to that? Premeet Sidhu Sure. I am just doing a little bit of research, kind of in the games and education tabletop space. So a few of the projects I'm working on are looking at designing specific tabletop games for things like educating children about difference and diversity, about game monetization, a broad array of different topics. So yeah, just looking more at the design aspect. José Zagal Yeah, I think Pre is being a little bit too humble. So Pre is about to get her PhD. So as soon as that happens, you get to, we get to officially call her the world's leading expert in D&D and education. And so I think that's correct. So if you have any interest in education, if you haven't seen in D&D and how these kind of crossover and how to make things work, Pre would be the person to reach out to talk to her because she's the expert. Premeet Sidhu Yeah, would love to have a chat with anyone at any time. So yeah, do reach out. Thanks, José. Wyrmworks Publishing Well, my one of my daughters is a hardcore D&D player and a and teaches second grade and, and is always looking for ways to kind of bring those two things together. So yeah, yeah, just need more of that. I need more of that for my kids who are in school to to, like, hey, teachers, this will help, all right. So we'll have all your contact information in our show notes. But where's the one best place that you'd like people to learn more about you or to contact you? Premeet Sidhu Yeah, you can probably learn more about my work on my Google Scholar page. But yeah, just reach out by email or any of my socials. José Zagal I'm, I guess, reasonably active on Twitter, though, we're not supposed to call it Twitter there anymore. Also, games.utah.edu is sort of homepage for the department where I work, and you can get then you can get to my my official faculty page and learn more about what's happening at the university. So if you're interested in studying games and so on, then definitely reach out. I think my email will also be in the show notes. So that's also a good way to get in touch with me. Wyrmworks Publishing Awesome. Yeah. I refer to it as the "dumpster fire formerly known as Twitter." José Zagal You know, I'm hanging on. It's like it's okay if you block people a lot, you know, it works out. There's still plenty of good souls on Twitter. As long as you ignore the flames around Yep. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah, I had to leave. I mean, much respect for anyone who's managed to stay on there and keep their their mental health. I had to for my own mental health leave. It was just a little bit too much hostility. José Zagal Oh, no, I believe that, and I'm very much aware of, I guess the cesspool are aspects of it. For sure. Which is why my best friend is the block button. I block so easily and so liberally that, yeah, you got to do your self-care too. Block. that's mine. Wyrmworks Publishing Yeah. All right. Well, thank-you so much for coming on the show. Everyone, check out those links in the show notes. José Zagal Awesome. Well, thanks for the invite. This has been a real pleasure. And I look forward to hearing from the viewers, listeners, and I guess your audience how about that? I was gonna say consumers, but that's sounded too… sounded a bit icky. Premeet Sidhu Thanks, everyone. Wyrmworks Publishing Pre and José, thank you so much for coming on the show. That was so much fun. And we're hoping to have them back in the future to talk about some of their other individual work. And so really looking forward to that, and if you haven't already, subscribe so that you don't miss out on those. Wyrmworks Publishing At the beginning of the show, I talked about how you can support our work. I want to thank Cece and Jeanne Marie Hoffman, our newest patrons. Thank you so much for your support. It really makes a difference. And thanks to our patrons, I also mentioned the Community Copies at the beginning of the show. Alright, we add them to our store every month for those who can't afford our products. So if that's you, sign up for our weekly emails to get notified when they come available. Alright, this month alone, we added $525 worth of free copies, so there's plenty there if you'd like one or more of those titles, go ahead and get them. Thanks again to our patrons for your generous support to make that happen. If you see this show being helpful, if you're watching this on YouTube, hit the Like button. If you'd like to see more this, hear more of this, please subscribe so you don't miss out on any of it. If you know people that need to hear this, pass it on to them. If you, like me, think everyone needs to hear this, then pass it on to your social media friends. And don't forget those podcasts ratings. They really make a difference. So thank you so much for joining us to make live better with tabletop games. Transcribed by https://otter.ai